Originally posted by tabibito
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?
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“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
According to Josephus, Philo was largely inspired by Aristobulus of Alexandria and the Alexandrian school. The only event in Philo's life that can be decisively dated is his participation in the embassy to Rome in 40 CE; whereby he represented the Alexandrian Jews in a delegation to the Roman Emperor Gaius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (Caligula) following civil strife between the Alexandrian Jewish and Greek communities. - cited Wiki1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Josephus was born when Philo was sixty or so. That make them contemporaries, I suppose. After a fashion, anyway - Josephus would have been 3 or 4 years old when Philo made that journey.
https://bethshalompgh.org/who-was-philo-of-alexandria-originally-published-august-28-29-2020/
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Nevertheless, unlike Jesus, Philo (Jesus’ exact contemporary BTW) was a well-known figure and writer with some of his works still extant. He was a philosopher/historian with particular interest in religion and yet he makes no reference to the supposed highly dramatic and ‘miraculous’ events of Jesus’ life as claimed by the gospels – particularly at the crucifixion. One would think that the alleged earthquake, eclipse and the dead rising from their graves and wandering into Jerusalem, would have piqued his interest.
https://bethshalompgh.org/who-was-philo-of-alexandria-originally-published-august-28-29-2020/
As to the sun being darkened, that seems to be a simple colloquialism equating to the sky being darkened in English. So far, only a seems to be - I haven't finished checking.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Nevertheless, unlike Jesus, Philo (Jesus’ exact contemporary BTW) was a well-known figure and writer with some of his works still extant. He was a philosopher/historian with particular interest in religion and yet he makes no reference to the supposed highly dramatic and ‘miraculous’ events of Jesus’ life as claimed by the gospels – particularly at the crucifixion. One would think that the alleged earthquake, eclipse and the dead rising from their graves and wandering into Jerusalem, would have piqued his interest.
https://bethshalompgh.org/who-was-philo-of-alexandria-originally-published-august-28-29-2020/
Nobody knows when exactly he died. Or where he died.
This in spite of him being very well known during his lifetime and having powerful relatives in the Roman Empire.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The alleged earthquake results from a heavy stone being dropped onto a limestone formation - it might easily have been quite violent (limestone does transmit shock quite well for distances of 100 metres or so), but it also would have been thoroughly localised. Matthew seems to have a tendency to overdramatise things, but this isn't one of the occasions.
As to the sun being darkened, that seems to be a simple colloquialism equating to the sky being darkened in English. So far, only a seems to be - I haven't finished checking.
Keep in mind that we've had supernovas appear in the sky that IIRC the records for amount to a single mention or two worldwide.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd yet nobody knows when he was born. Or where he was born.
Nobody knows when exactly he died. Or where he died.
This in spite of him being very well known during his lifetime and having powerful relatives in the Roman Empire.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostInterestingly, there are ancient non-Christian historians who record these events.
Keep in mind that we've had supernovas appear in the sky that IIRC the records for amount to a single mention or two worldwide.
Likewise, earthquakes are a reasonably familiar phenomenon in the Middle East.
However, for the particular earth-quaking mentioned by Matthew, the cause is attributed to the rock (for it was heavy) at the mouth of the tomb falling.
Read that, check the geological features around Jerusalem - yes, it's limestone.
Limestone + heavy rock falling + Koine Greek range for seismos = localised "earthquake."
σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock, agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context
most commonly earthquake ...
storm on a body of water, w. waves caused by high winds ... Rhodes is swallowed up by a σεισμός [as a result of a storm? or earthquake at sea?]...Last edited by tabibito; 04-24-2022, 06:39 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostOne would think that the alleged earthquake, eclipse and the dead rising from their graves and wandering into Jerusalem, would have piqued his interest.
Josephus's writings are useful IMO because they make it clear that percentage of the inhabitants of Jerusalem who were Christian was small (perhaps ~1%). What this tells us is that the vast vast majority of the people who lived in the area at the time had not found there to be any convincing evidence regarding Jesus's alleged miracles, resurrection or anything else of that nature. It seems a favorite argument of some modern apologists that the events of the resurrection as reported in the gospels are so convincing that we now, 2000 years later, should believe it happened. Yet is it worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of the people who were living in the area at the time were not convinced and didn't find the events or the testimonies of those involved to be convincing."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostHistorians general accept that Jesus was a real figure that lived during time the NT describes, a rabbi? that taught a Messianic message, claimed to be the Kig of the Jews, was condemned in Roman Court of Rebellion against Rome by claiming to be the King of the Jews, and was crucified under Roman Law. The question arises what about the Biblical Jesus Christ that skeptics seriously question ever existed.
That doesn't, of course, necessarily prove he actually existed, just that it's plausible he did. I think the strongest evidence to suggest he might not have existed is the early flourishing of gnostic and docetic forms of Christianity which asserted that he didn't exist, combined with the apparent early popularity of getting teachings and information from revelations and visions... e.g. the book of Revelation or Paul's "When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation" (1 Cor 14:26) and the shockingly loose boundaries they had on allowable revelations "I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3). The freedom Paul seems to give here to his congregants to invent new teachings from the spirit seems pretty large. Outside of the canonical NT there are plenty of accounts of visions and revelations of people receiving teachings. It is possible that the gospel accounts represent gradually compiled visions and revelations of what "Jesus did", with no Jesus ever having actually physically existed."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
Comment
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostMy view tends to be that the synoptics gospels paint an extremely plausible picture of Jesus as a social reformer, who saw himself on a god-approved mission to teach against the inequities in society. Something like a cross between Martin Luther King Jr and the Old Testament prophets.
That doesn't, of course, necessarily prove he actually existed, just that it's plausible he did. I think the strongest evidence to suggest he might not have existed is the early flourishing of gnostic and docetic forms of Christianity which asserted that he didn't exist, combined with the apparent early popularity of getting teachings and information from revelations and visions... e.g. the book of Revelation or Paul's "When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation" (1 Cor 14:26) and the shockingly loose boundaries they had on allowable revelations "I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3). The freedom Paul seems to give here to his congregants to invent new teachings from the spirit seems pretty large. Outside of the canonical NT there are plenty of accounts of visions and revelations of people receiving teachings. It is possible that the gospel accounts represent gradually compiled visions and revelations of what "Jesus did", with no Jesus ever having actually physically existed.Last edited by tabibito; 04-24-2022, 07:02 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostNevertheless, unlike Jesus, Philo (Jesus’ exact contemporary BTW) was a well-known figure and writer with some of his works still extant. He was a philosopher/historian with particular interest in religion and yet he makes no reference to the supposed highly dramatic and ‘miraculous’ events of Jesus’ life as claimed by the gospels – particularly at the crucifixion. One would think that the alleged earthquake, eclipse and the dead rising from their graves and wandering into Jerusalem, would have piqued his interest.Originally posted by tabibito View PostChristians were responsible for preserving Philo's works. It is amazing that sceptics would consider those works authentic.
Events where the sun darkened but not during an eclipse are indeed far from unknown, true enough.
Likewise, earthquakes are a reasonably familiar phenomenon in the Middle East.
However, for the particular earth-quaking mentioned by Matthew, the cause is attributed to the rock (for it was heavy) at the mouth of the tomb falling.
Read that, check the geological features around Jerusalem - yes, it's limestone.
Limestone + heavy rock falling + Koine Greek range for seismos = localised "earthquake."
σεισμός, οῦ, ὁ (σείω; Eur. et al. in var. senses)a violent shaking or commotion, shock, agitation, in our lit. only of natural phenomena, w. the specific type qualified by context
most commonly earthquake ...
storm on a body of water, w. waves caused by high winds ... Rhodes is swallowed up by a σεισμός [as a result of a storm? or earthquake at sea?]...
According to the NT scholars Bruce Malina and Richard Rohrbaugh, in their Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels, "the saints who had fallen asleep" designates Jesus' followers, so the image of thousands of dead men and women rising from the graveyard like some sort of zombie apocalypse is wholly inaccurate. Instead, it would have been followers of Jesus who had lived in Jerusalem and who had recently died being referenced to.
So, just how many of his Jerusalem-based followers had died during his ministry? Not likely a whole lot. While Matthew says they were many, by many Matthew has shown he means anywhere from roughly a half dozen on up. Six followers raised from the dead would likely be considered "many" by most folks.
Now given that the dead returning to life is, while incredibly rare, something that is recorded in the OT and accepted by the people at large, then, if Matthew is referring to somewhere around six recently deceased followers of a Jewish cult leader coming back to life, it might not get as much contemporary attention as a lot of people think it should, although the ECFs such as Ignatius discuss it.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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For those who are seriously interested, and assuming they have access to a good library, Morris has a long article on Philo of Alexandria in Volume 3.2 of Schürer's [The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ [Geschichte des judischen Volkes im Zeitalter Jesu Christi]. There is also Smallwood's translation and commentary on Philonis Alexandrini Legatio Ad Gaium, as well as several scholarly biographies of Philo ."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostFor those who are seriously interested, and assuming they have access to a good library, Morris has a long article on Philo of Alexandria in Volume 3.2 of Schürer's [The History of the Jewish People in the Age of Jesus Christ [Geschichte des judischen Volkes im Zeitalter Jesu Christi]. There is also Smallwood's translation and commentary on Philonis Alexandrini Legatio Ad Gaium, as well as several scholarly biographies of Philo .
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
There's also the mention of earthquakes and darkness in the vicinity at that time by the pagan historian Thallus
https://infidels.org/library/modern/...rrier-thallus/
That a solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil Georgics 2.47.478-80). [...]
We know next to nothing about Thallus or his works. We don’t even know if he wrote only one book or several. The only information we have about him, even his name, comes entirely from Christian apologetic sources beginning in the late 2nd century, and that information is plagued with problems.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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