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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
    It is well documented that Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem during th elife of Jesus, and intimate knew major figures of Palestine including the ruling and influential families.
    That Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem has already been acknowledged in this thread. The questions are when? and how long did he stay? During the lifetime of Jesus doesn't tell us a whole lot. If it was during Passover (which seems to have been the case), and during one of the (some might argue the only) pilgrimages made by Jesus to Jerusalem, and if Philo had seen fit to mention that particular Passover, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Jesus. Thus far, I have seen mention of Passover many times in his works, but no mention of the particulars of a given Passover celebration that he attended. Still, I have only had the copy for a few hours, so something might turn up later. The question is not "why did not Philo mention Christ or Christianity?" until something in the context of a particular writing indicates that there should be some mention of Christ or Christianity. Such mentions would be made only if they were on topic.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      The topic addressed Philo's lack of mention of Christ, which would seem to indicate that reading Philo's works would be necessary to determine whether discussion of Christ would be germane. So far, it doesn't seem that Philo's interests and discussions would lead to any expectation that Christ should be featured. Had the topic been Pilate, maybe Bond's monograph would have been relevant. I note that the monograph comes highly recommended - it is rubbished by a Jesus myther.
      The comment I addressed in my first reply to this thread was this:

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Did Philo write about Herod? Pilate? Quirinius? Caiaphas? Annas? I don't know that he wrote about any personages among his contemporaries.


      And as I noted in my reply, it is evident you do not know very much about Philo or his writings.

      Furthermore, why should an aristocratic Hellenised Alexandrian Jew have any interest in some obscure, and potentially dissident, peasant visionary?

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        The comment I addressed in my first reply to this thread was this:



        And as I noted in my reply, it is evident you do not know very much about Philo or his writings.
        Given that I have already stated that is the case - it is difficult to understand why you choose to belabour the point.

        Furthermore, why should an aristocratic Hellenised Alexandrian Jew have any interest in some obscure, and potentially dissident, peasant visionary?
        That is the question that it would normally be appropriate to ask, though it doesn't seem that Shunyadragon's source has considered it. However, in Philo's case, a bit deeper investigation really is necessary, I think.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          That Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem has already been acknowledged in this thread. The questions are when? and how long did he stay? During the lifetime of Jesus doesn't tell us a whole lot. If it was during Passover (which seems to have been the case), and during one of the (some might argue the only) pilgrimages made by Jesus to Jerusalem, and if Philo had seen fit to mention that particular Passover, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Jesus. Thus far, I have seen mention of Passover many times in his works, but no mention of the particulars of a given Passover celebration that he attended. Still, I have only had the copy for a few hours, so something might turn up later. The question is not "why did not Philo mention Christ or Christianity?" until something in the context of a particular writing indicates that there should be some mention of Christ or Christianity. Such mentions would be made only if they were on topic.
          The pilgrimage is documented as late in Philo's life, and you are neglecting the fact that Philo had an intimate relationship with members of the ruling family of Palestine and influential families. His reords of events in Palestine are considered among the most accurate in the history of Palestine in that period.

          Source: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Philo-Judaeus



          The one identifiable event in Philo's life occurred in the year 39 or 40, when, after a pogrom against the Jews in Alexandria, he headed an embassy to the emperor Caligula asking him to reassert Jewish rights granted by the Ptolemies (rulers of Egypt) and confirmed by the emperor Augustus.

          © Copyright Original Source


          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

          go with the flow the river knows . . .

          Frank

          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

            The pilgrimage is documented as late in Philo's life,
            So - very likely after all the fuss about Jesus and the follow up initial persecution had died down.

            you are neglecting the fact that Philo had an intimate relationship with members of the ruling family of Palestine and influential families. His reords of events in Palestine are considered among the most accurate in history.
            Not even thinking about neglecting those factors. Just looking for a place in Philo's writing where writing about Jesus or Christianity would not be off topic. So far, there doesn't seem to be one; but a few hours after taking possession of a thousand + page anthology hasn't allowed a lot of opportunity for certainty.



            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              So - very likely after all the fuss about Jesus and the follow up initial persecution had died down.
              What "initial persecution"?

              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Not even thinking about neglecting those factors. Just looking for a place in Philo's writing where writing about Jesus or Christianity would not be off topic. So far, there doesn't seem to be one; but a few hours after taking possession of a thousand + page anthology hasn't allowed a lot of opportunity for certainty.
              Perhaps M.I. Finley's comments on Josephus from his introductory essay in Josephus the Jewish War and Other Selections from Flavius Josephus, New England Library, 1966 might be equally applied to Philo of Alexandria.

              Finally there is the special problem of Josephus and the Christians about which many more words have been wasted in futile controversy than the subject warrants. There are exactly three references to anything Christian in the Greek text, all in the [Jewish] Antiquities: XVIII, iii,3 [the Testimonium Flavianum], XVIII, v, 2 [dealing with the execution of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas], and XX, ix,1 [the arrest and execution of James, the brother of Jesus]. There is nothing surprising in Josephus’s lack of interest in Christianity, even to the extent of not mentioning the Neronic persecution of 64, the year of his first visit to Rome. It is only from hindsight that the new religion acquires such importance as to create the illusion that it must already have earned the serious attention of a Jewish historian writing towards the end of the first century.[these references] contribute nothing to our knowledge unless one needs persuading that there was a John the Baptist, that there was a Jesus Christ (who had a brother named James), and that they were executed.


              In other words to many contemporaries this small and obscure Jewish Messianic sect was completely unimportant, if indeed they had ever been aware of it.







              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                What "initial persecution"?



                Perhaps M.I. Finley's comments on Josephus from his introductory essay in Josephus the Jewish War and Other Selections from Flavius Josephus, New England Library, 1966 might be equally applied to Philo of Alexandria.

                Finally there is the special problem of Josephus and the Christians about which many more words have been wasted in futile controversy than the subject warrants. There are exactly three references to anything Christian in the Greek text, all in the [Jewish] Antiquities: XVIII, iii,3 [the Testimonium Flavianum], XVIII, v, 2 [dealing with the execution of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas], and XX, ix,1 [the arrest and execution of James, the brother of Jesus]. There is nothing surprising in Josephus’s lack of interest in Christianity, even to the extent of not mentioning the Neronic persecution of 64, the year of his first visit to Rome. It is only from hindsight that the new religion acquires such importance as to create the illusion that it must already have earned the serious attention of a Jewish historian writing towards the end of the first century.[these references] contribute nothing to our knowledge unless one needs persuading that there was a John the Baptist, that there was a Jesus Christ (who had a brother named James), and that they were executed.


                In other words to many contemporaries this small and obscure Jewish Messianic sect was completely unimportant, if indeed they had ever been aware of it.






                There was one localised, small group for whom the sect of the Nazarene (apart from the sect itself) was not insignificant, at least in potentia.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  The topic addressed Philo's lack of mention of Christ, which would seem to indicate that reading Philo's works would be necessary to determine whether discussion of Christ would be germane. So far, it doesn't seem that Philo's interests and discussions would lead to any expectation that Christ should be featured. Had the topic been Pilate, maybe Bond's monograph would have been relevant. I note that the monograph comes highly recommended - it is rubbished by a Jesus myther.
                  The bold is a dodge in huge proportions. It actually justifies the evidence from the historical perspective that the historical Jesus was a minor figure, one of several messianic rebels at the time that rebelled or advocated rebellion, claimed to be the King of the Jews, were tried by Rome and convicted of rebellion against Rome and crucified. What the failure of Philo to make even a footnote of the existence of the Biblical Jesus Christ brings seriously to doubt the accounts of the life of a miracle working Jesus Christ, large following. and the events such as the earthquake and the unexplained darkness described in the Gospels. By the evidence the Gospel accounts represent an evolved exaggerated Christology in the New Testament.

                  The concept of the evolved exaggerated Christology complete with miracles fits theme that commonly occurs occurs after the death of many historical figures after their death.

                  Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-22-2022, 07:24 AM.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    It is clearly an erroneous comment.
                    But... don't you think that when a source gets such a basic fact wrong -- namely, a claim that Philo was closely associated with Jerusalem and was there when Jesus was crucified -- which is so easy to refute, that this says an awful lot about the trustworthiness and accuracy (or lack of) of that source?

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      I will document the 'close' association' of Philo in his travels around Rome, and close association to the influential people and rulers of Palestine.

                      Source: https://www.jesusneverexisted.com/philo.html



                      Philo was also in the right place to give testimony of a messianic contender. A Jewish aristocrat and leader of the large Jewish community of Alexandria, we know that Philo spent time in Jerusalem (On Providence) where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. His brother, Alexander the "alabarch" (chief tax official), was one of the richest men in the east, in charge of collecting levies on imports into Roman Egypt. Alexander's great wealth financed the silver and gold sheathing which adorned the doors of the Temple (Josephus, War 5.205). Alexander also loaned a fortune to Herod Agrippa I (Antiquities 18).

                      One of Alexander's sons, and Philo's nephews, Marcus, was married to Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, 39-40. After the exile of Herod Antipas – villain of the Jesus saga – he ruled as King of the Jews, 41-44 AD. Another nephew was the "apostate" Julius Alexander Tiberius, Prefect of Egypt and also Procurator of Judaea itself (46-48 AD).

                      Much as Josephus would, a half century later, Philo wrote extensive apologetics on the Jewish religion and commentaries on contemporary politics. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words are extant. Philo offers commentary on all the major characters of the Pentateuch and, as we might expect, mentions Moses more than a thousand times.

                      Yet Philo says not a word about Jesus, Christianity nor any of the events described in the New Testament. In all this work, Philo makes not a single reference to his alleged contemporary "Jesus Christ", the godman who supposedly was perambulating up and down the Levant, exorcising demons, raising the dead and causing earthquake and darkness at his death.

                      With Philo's close connection to the house of Herod, one might reasonably expect that the miraculous escape from a royal prison of a gang of apostles (Acts 5.18,40), or the second, angel-assisted, flight of Peter, even though chained between soldiers and guarded by four squads of troops (Acts 12.2,7) might have occasioned the odd footnote. But not a murmur. Nothing of Agrippa "vexing certain of the church" or killing "James brother of John" with the sword (Acts 12.1,2).

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Can you cite references to support your position of the limits of Philo's knowledge of Jerusalem ?
                      This hardly supports the erroneous claim in the OP that

                      Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.


                      If the source makes such an egregious mistake as these, what other screw ups did it make?

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        It is well documented that Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem during th elife of Jesus, and intimate knew major figures of Palestine including the ruling and influential families.
                        He made a festival pilgrimage to Jerusalem and the temple once, as he himself stated in On Providence 2.64, which may have been during Jesus' lifetime, but that is hardly what your source claimed, namely that

                        Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.


                        For that claim there is not a whit of evidence.

                        Btw, one thing scholars have observed about Philo is his silence regarding any of the great rabbis he would certainly have met in Alexandria and perhaps in Jerusalem, but that he doesn't mention Jesus either is supposed to be telling.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          That Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem has already been acknowledged in this thread. The questions are when? and how long did he stay? During the lifetime of Jesus doesn't tell us a whole lot. If it was during Passover (which seems to have been the case), and during one of the (some might argue the only) pilgrimages made by Jesus to Jerusalem, and if Philo had seen fit to mention that particular Passover, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Jesus. Thus far, I have seen mention of Passover many times in his works, but no mention of the particulars of a given Passover celebration that he attended. Still, I have only had the copy for a few hours, so something might turn up later. The question is not "why did not Philo mention Christ or Christianity?" until something in the context of a particular writing indicates that there should be some mention of Christ or Christianity. Such mentions would be made only if they were on topic.
                          Philo only mentions one trip but does mention other things like his contributing money for new doors for the Temple and the like a few times, so it is likely but not certain that he made only one trip. Given the fact that he didn't know Hebrew (and thought the Greek translations of the OT were essentially flawless), he might not have been all that comfortable there and not eager to make several trips.

                          But even if his visit corresponds to the same time that Jesus was alive, that hardly means that he was

                          Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.


                          I mean, if he went there when Jesus was twelve or twenty, why would he have heard of him again? And even if Philo went when Jesus had an active ministry in Galilee, he might have heard of Him but why would he bother to mention Him?

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            There was one localised, small group for whom the sect of the Nazarene (apart from the sect itself) was not insignificant, at least in potentia.
                            That there was persecution is attested to by both Paul and Acts. I mean Stephen died as a direct result.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              That there was persecution is attested to by both Paul and Acts. I mean Stephen died as a direct result.
                              Most assuredly; and immediately after Stephen was stoned, a persecution resulting in a dispersion of Christians is spoken of. Paul also makes comments that affirm it to be so.
                              "Historians" will however declare the Biblical claims invalid, for all that historians won't.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                That there was persecution is attested to by both Paul and Acts. I mean Stephen died as a direct result.
                                . . . but Philos is silent as to specifics of Christianity at the time of Jesus, except for other historical general records of persecution of many followers of different cults, those with rebellious motives, and anyone who remotely questioned Roman rule, and of course Christians.. It is likely many were stoned by the Jews for a variety of reason violating Jewish laws.

                                Paul is not an unbiased independent source,
                                Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-22-2022, 08:54 AM.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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