Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The topic addressed Philo's lack of mention of Christ, which would seem to indicate that reading Philo's works would be necessary to determine whether discussion of Christ would be germane. So far, it doesn't seem that Philo's interests and discussions would lead to any expectation that Christ should be featured. Had the topic been Pilate, maybe Bond's monograph would have been relevant. I note that the monograph comes highly recommended - it is rubbished by a Jesus myther.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Did Philo write about Herod? Pilate? Quirinius? Caiaphas? Annas? I don't know that he wrote about any personages among his contemporaries.
And as I noted in my reply, it is evident you do not know very much about Philo or his writings.
Furthermore, why should an aristocratic Hellenised Alexandrian Jew have any interest in some obscure, and potentially dissident, peasant visionary?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The comment I addressed in my first reply to this thread was this:
And as I noted in my reply, it is evident you do not know very much about Philo or his writings.
Furthermore, why should an aristocratic Hellenised Alexandrian Jew have any interest in some obscure, and potentially dissident, peasant visionary?
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
That Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem has already been acknowledged in this thread. The questions are when? and how long did he stay? During the lifetime of Jesus doesn't tell us a whole lot. If it was during Passover (which seems to have been the case), and during one of the (some might argue the only) pilgrimages made by Jesus to Jerusalem, and if Philo had seen fit to mention that particular Passover, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Jesus. Thus far, I have seen mention of Passover many times in his works, but no mention of the particulars of a given Passover celebration that he attended. Still, I have only had the copy for a few hours, so something might turn up later. The question is not "why did not Philo mention Christ or Christianity?" until something in the context of a particular writing indicates that there should be some mention of Christ or Christianity. Such mentions would be made only if they were on topic.
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
The pilgrimage is documented as late in Philo's life,
you are neglecting the fact that Philo had an intimate relationship with members of the ruling family of Palestine and influential families. His reords of events in Palestine are considered among the most accurate in history.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
So - very likely after all the fuss about Jesus and the follow up initial persecution had died down.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Not even thinking about neglecting those factors. Just looking for a place in Philo's writing where writing about Jesus or Christianity would not be off topic. So far, there doesn't seem to be one; but a few hours after taking possession of a thousand + page anthology hasn't allowed a lot of opportunity for certainty.
Finally there is the special problem of Josephus and the Christians about which many more words have been wasted in futile controversy than the subject warrants. There are exactly three references to anything Christian in the Greek text, all in the [Jewish] Antiquities: XVIII, iii,3 [the Testimonium Flavianum], XVIII, v, 2 [dealing with the execution of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas], and XX, ix,1 [the arrest and execution of James, the brother of Jesus]. There is nothing surprising in Josephus’s lack of interest in Christianity, even to the extent of not mentioning the Neronic persecution of 64, the year of his first visit to Rome. It is only from hindsight that the new religion acquires such importance as to create the illusion that it must already have earned the serious attention of a Jewish historian writing towards the end of the first century.[these references] contribute nothing to our knowledge unless one needs persuading that there was a John the Baptist, that there was a Jesus Christ (who had a brother named James), and that they were executed.
In other words to many contemporaries this small and obscure Jewish Messianic sect was completely unimportant, if indeed they had ever been aware of it.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWhat "initial persecution"?
Perhaps M.I. Finley's comments on Josephus from his introductory essay in Josephus the Jewish War and Other Selections from Flavius Josephus, New England Library, 1966 might be equally applied to Philo of Alexandria.
Finally there is the special problem of Josephus and the Christians about which many more words have been wasted in futile controversy than the subject warrants. There are exactly three references to anything Christian in the Greek text, all in the [Jewish] Antiquities: XVIII, iii,3 [the Testimonium Flavianum], XVIII, v, 2 [dealing with the execution of John the Baptist by Herod Antipas], and XX, ix,1 [the arrest and execution of James, the brother of Jesus]. There is nothing surprising in Josephus’s lack of interest in Christianity, even to the extent of not mentioning the Neronic persecution of 64, the year of his first visit to Rome. It is only from hindsight that the new religion acquires such importance as to create the illusion that it must already have earned the serious attention of a Jewish historian writing towards the end of the first century.[these references] contribute nothing to our knowledge unless one needs persuading that there was a John the Baptist, that there was a Jesus Christ (who had a brother named James), and that they were executed.
In other words to many contemporaries this small and obscure Jewish Messianic sect was completely unimportant, if indeed they had ever been aware of it.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The topic addressed Philo's lack of mention of Christ, which would seem to indicate that reading Philo's works would be necessary to determine whether discussion of Christ would be germane. So far, it doesn't seem that Philo's interests and discussions would lead to any expectation that Christ should be featured. Had the topic been Pilate, maybe Bond's monograph would have been relevant. I note that the monograph comes highly recommended - it is rubbished by a Jesus myther.
The concept of the evolved exaggerated Christology complete with miracles fits theme that commonly occurs occurs after the death of many historical figures after their death.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-22-2022, 07:24 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt is clearly an erroneous comment.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
I will document the 'close' association' of Philo in his travels around Rome, and close association to the influential people and rulers of Palestine.
Can you cite references to support your position of the limits of Philo's knowledge of Jerusalem ?
Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.
If the source makes such an egregious mistake as these, what other screw ups did it make?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is well documented that Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem during th elife of Jesus, and intimate knew major figures of Palestine including the ruling and influential families.
Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.
For that claim there is not a whit of evidence.
Btw, one thing scholars have observed about Philo is his silence regarding any of the great rabbis he would certainly have met in Alexandria and perhaps in Jerusalem, but that he doesn't mention Jesus either is supposed to be telling.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
- 1 like
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat Philo made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem has already been acknowledged in this thread. The questions are when? and how long did he stay? During the lifetime of Jesus doesn't tell us a whole lot. If it was during Passover (which seems to have been the case), and during one of the (some might argue the only) pilgrimages made by Jesus to Jerusalem, and if Philo had seen fit to mention that particular Passover, it would be reasonable to expect mention of Jesus. Thus far, I have seen mention of Passover many times in his works, but no mention of the particulars of a given Passover celebration that he attended. Still, I have only had the copy for a few hours, so something might turn up later. The question is not "why did not Philo mention Christ or Christianity?" until something in the context of a particular writing indicates that there should be some mention of Christ or Christianity. Such mentions would be made only if they were on topic.
But even if his visit corresponds to the same time that Jesus was alive, that hardly means that he was
Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven.
I mean, if he went there when Jesus was twelve or twenty, why would he have heard of him again? And even if Philo went when Jesus had an active ministry in Galilee, he might have heard of Him but why would he bother to mention Him?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There was one localised, small group for whom the sect of the Nazarene (apart from the sect itself) was not insignificant, at least in potentia.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThat there was persecution is attested to by both Paul and Acts. I mean Stephen died as a direct result.
"Historians" will however declare the Biblical claims invalid, for all that historians won't.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThat there was persecution is attested to by both Paul and Acts. I mean Stephen died as a direct result.
Paul is not an unbiased independent source,Last edited by shunyadragon; 04-22-2022, 08:54 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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