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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    You seem to have entirely missed the point.
    I do not consider that I have.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      I do not consider that I have.
      I'm certain that is true.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • I am sure you do.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was a major catastrophe with an ash plume that could have been seen for hundreds and possibly thousands of miles, killed thousands of people, and destroyed two large cities, one of them an important trade hub in the region. And yet the only written record of the event comes from a letter composed by Pliny the Younger over two decades later.

          Which is to say that not every significant occurance in the ancient world was well-documented, even when it was witnessed by and signficantly impacted the lives of thousands of people.
          I've pointed out several times how that eruption, which annihilated several Roman cities, including Pompeii and Herculaneum, was witnessed by literally tens of thousands of eyewitnesses in and around Naples, but we only have it mentioned in one near contemporary account -- that of Pliny the Younger -- who's account, written some 30 years later, was spurred on in reaction to Tacitus' Histories, and if not for that we would have no written account of it whatsoever.

          Further, I noted that Naples had a reputation during Greco-Roman times as being an area with a highly literate population, so we should have a slew of eyewitness reports in our hands, not just this one. In fact, it's not even until the time of Cassius Dio, over a century later, that we learn that a second major city was destroyed in the eruption.

          All of this gets summarily dismissed without discussion. Instead, they start noting the physical evidence of the eruption, and apparently hope I didn't notice that we were very specifically referring to written works, and the goal posts just suffered a seismic shift.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


            As has been previously noted, some ancient texts were not preserved in the pre-Christian world, others were destroyed [often by later Christians] and other ancient authors did not elicit the same degree of interest within the Christian world as did the Christian religious texts [copied to spread the word] as well as various letters, homilies etc. from ECFs.
            As has also been previously noted, a good portion of what was preserved was also done by Christians as well, such as the Irish monks, particularly those of the Hiberno-Scottish mission, working to save knowledge from the Roman Empire from being lost during the various invasions by the Huns and Germanic tribes.

            Many of the works that nearly all Christians went out of their way to copy and preserve were something by Aristotle, who was viewed quite highly. And yet two-thirds of it has been lost.

            And look at how many early Christian works are only known by what was quoted by others (often centuries later) and some only by the mentioning of their existence. I mean we even lost some of Paul's letters, such as a third letter to the Corinthians mentioned in II Corinthians 2:4; 7:8-9, and set between the two we do have. Ephesians 3:3-4 mentions an earlier epistle he sent to them, and Colossians 4:16 mentions a possible now lost letter to the Laodiceans

            As for later works, including some from the earliest Church Fathers, again most is lost or only known in fragments where they are quoted in later works. For instance, Polycarp is believed to have penned several works but all we know of is his Epistle to the Philippians.

            Papias' multi-volume Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord is lost except for short excerpts by Irenaeus and especially Eusebius of Caesarea[1]. Similarly, all we know of Hegesippus the Nazarene's history of the church as well as his five volume Hypomnemata ("Memoranda") regarding Apostolic teachings, is provided by Eusebius. And all we know of one Apostolic Father, Quadratus of Athens, is that he wrote an Apology, presented to Hadrian when he was attending the celebration of the Eleusinian mysteries (c.120-130 A.D.). Eusebius mentions it and quotes a single sentence, whereas Jerome provides some biographical details in his Illustrious Men, although some think it influenced Irenaeus when it came to what he wrote about miracles.

            In fact, Eusebius cites quite a number of works that are only known through his quotations of them. For instance he cites at least four books by Irenaeus now lost.

            I probably should note that some of Eusebius' works are also lost.

            The point being even things that people were working hard to preserve were lost in droves.



            1. There appears to be some evidence that the work may have survived up into the latter Middle Ages

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

              Broad brush false assertion. Yes many Roman records do exist that are considered historical records.
              Name one, and tell me why it is considered a historical record.
              This does not justify your previous assertion. There is abundant evidence much of the Tanakh has evolved from earlier writings from Syrian, Babylonian,and Ugarite texts including the Psalms.
              Provide some.
              There is abundant evidence that these are evolved forms of older content and language of previous ancient Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugaritic and Pheonician texts older than the Hebrew language. The Hebrew language is a relatively young language and alphabet evolved from older languages.
              Repeating your assertion doesn't make it any truerer. The Tanakh interacts with and subverts the beliefs of the cultures around Israel. Paleo-Hebrew is at least 3,000 years old.
              False, there are many much more ancient papyrus and parchment documents found throughout the Middle East.
              You appear to not have understood what you're replying to here. While a handful of of papyri have survived in Egypt for as long as 4,000 years or so, most places are too wet for organic writing surfaces to last nearly that long. Even in the case of Egyptian papyri, only an insignificantly small percentage of them will have survived the ravages of the ages.
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                You appear to not have understood what you're replying to here. While a handful of of papyri have survived in Egypt for as long as 4,000 years or so, most places are too wet for organic writing surfaces to last nearly that long. Even in the case of Egyptian papyri, only an insignificantly small percentage of them will have survived the ravages of the ages.
                It seems that the Hebrews favoured ink on plaster for ordinary purposes, not exactly materials that survive long term. For important writing, it seems that inscribed soft metals (lead, silver, gold) were preferred. Of course, while that should give very long term durability, it is also highly vulnerable to plundering and repurposing.

                Nonetheless, the occasional inscription in silver or lead does turn up, and even in stone e.g. the Siloam Inscription. Of course, that wasn't written in Hebrew; it pre-dates the Hebrew alphabet by some centuries. Using the same reasoning, nothing has been written in English for more than a millenium - it's all Latin, because it is written in Roman letters.
                Last edited by tabibito; 05-12-2022, 03:06 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                Comment


                • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Name one, and tell me why it is considered a historical record.
                  The Res Gestae Divi Augusti.

                  You might also consider the Arch of Titus and Trajan's Column as two more examples among the plethora of Roman records.



                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    The Res Gestae Divi Augusti.

                    You might also consider the Arch of Titus and Trajan's Column as two more examples among the plethora of Roman records.
                    Of course you knew that wasn't what he meant, but then...



                    best-kind-of-correct.gif

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Of course you knew that wasn't what he meant
                      I note you fled the field after being asked to provide evidence for your wild speculations about Cephas/Peter and his business dealings.

                      As to One Bad Pig, I have no idea what he meant . I only know what he wrote.

                      He asked for one example of a Roman record. I gave three examples of contemporary Roman records. There are many many more.

                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Of course you knew that wasn't what he meant, but then...



                        best-kind-of-correct.gif
                        It is what I ment. These represent Roman historical records.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          Name one, and tell me why it is considered a historical record.
                          Hypatia_Alexandria has already answered this.

                          You appear to not have understood what you're replying to here. While a handful of of papyri have survived in Egypt for as long as 4,000 years or so, most places are too wet for organic writing surfaces to last nearly that long. Even in the case of Egyptian papyri, only an insignificantly small percentage of them will have survived the ravages of the ages.
                          There are far more than a handful. It is well documented that papyrus and parchment are far older than you originally erroneously described.

                          You are hugely overstating the earliest Paleo-Hebrew writing, which is not Hebrew. The oldest Paleo-Hebrew is ~3000 years old and it is not Hebrew script.

                          Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages#Ancient_Semitic-speaking_peoples



                          The earliest known precursor to Hebrew, an inscription in the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet, is the Khirbet Qeiyafa Inscription (11th–10th century BCE),[1] if it can be considered Hebrew at that early a stage.


                          By far the most varied, extensive, and historically significant body of literature written in Biblical Hebrew is the Hebrew scriptures (commonly referred to as the Tanakh), but certain other works have survived as well. Before the Aramaic-derived Hebrew alphabet was adopted circa the 5th century BCE, the Phoenician-derived Paleo-Hebrew alphabet was used for writing, and a derivative of the script still survives to this day in the form of the Samaritan script.

                          © Copyright Original Source

                          Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-13-2022, 10:18 AM.
                          Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                          Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                          But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                          go with the flow the river knows . . .

                          Frank

                          I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            The comment did not address your claims, but the claims made by your source.
                            Subject addressed in detail already. Your Duck, Bob and Weave act gets you nowhere,
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              The comment did not address your claims, but the claims made by your source.
                              Address my claims!
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment

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