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Why do skeptics question whether the Biblical Jesus Christ ever existed?

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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    ? Do you consider Paul's letters to have been penned after he died?
    First ; Paul was not a witness to the life of Jesus Christ. His information concerning the life of Jesus is as best second hand. Second; Not all of Paul's letters are considered written by Paul. Third; The primary focus is the gospels
    Scant few ancient records date to their subjects' actual lifetimes, and aside from Philo's writings, precious little of anything written in Judaea during the period 40-80CE has survived. Even with Philo's writing, I don't think we have the autographs (could be I'm wrong.) Oops, my mistake. Philo wasn't in Judaea (apart from a short sojourn).
    Paul was well trveled around Rome and had close relatives and associates in high places in Rome. Yes, in Philo's writings he had not one reference to Jesus nor his followers including Paul anywhere in Rome

    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

      First ; Paul was not a witness to the life of Jesus Christ. His information concerning the life of Jesus is as best second hand. Second; Not all of Paul's letters are considered written by Paul. Third; The primary focus is the gospels


      Paul was well trveled around Rome and had close relatives and associates in high places in Rome. Yes, in Philo's writings he had not one reference to Jesus nor his followers including Paul anywhere in Rome
      Can you provide some indication of a place in Philo's writing where discussion of Paul, Christ, or Christianity would have been on topic? As has been stated before, if such discussions would not have been on topic, there would be no reasonable cause to expect Philo to broach the subject.

      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Can you provide some indication of a place in Philo's writing where discussion of Paul, Christ, or Christianity would have been on topic? As has been stated before, if such discussions would not have been on topic, there would be no reasonable cause to expect Philo to broach the subject.
        Considering the description of the events provided by the NT and Paul they should be well known and prominent to the point Philoo would have known of them in his travels throughout Rome.

        The fact is no one recorded anything concerning Jesus during his life.
        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

        go with the flow the river knows . . .

        Frank

        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

          Considering the description of the events provided by the NT and Paul they should be well known and prominent to the point Philoo would have known of them in his travels throughout Rome.
          Question begging. I'll take it as indicating that you don't know of any part in Philo's writing where reference to Christ or matters Christian would be on topic.

          The fact is no one recorded anything concerning Jesus during his life.
          The fact is that almost nothing about anything dating from the relevant time in Judaea is extant. Whether or not anyone recorded anything is entirely a matter of conjecture. More to the point, anything extant would in all likelihood be a copy of a copy of a copy - autographs would be completely unexpected, but there are copies of copies of copies.
          Last edited by tabibito; 05-09-2022, 11:48 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • [QUOTE=tabibito;n1375464]

            Question begging. I'll take it as indicating that you don't know of any part in Philo's writing where reference to Christ or matters Christian would be on topic. [/quiote]

            Gross misuse of begging the question my conclusions are based on the facts of historical records during the life of Jesus.



            The fact is that almost nothing about anything dating from the relevant time in Judaea is extant. Whether or not anyone recorded anything is entirely a matter of conjecture. More to the point, anything extant would in all likelihood be a copy of a copy of a copy - autographs would be completely unexpected, but there are copies of copies of copies.
            Your assertions above are loaded with conjecture.

            The evidence clearly demonstrates that the later gospels are evolved, redacted and edited without documented authorship, which the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence is that they evolved from oral testimony and possibly an early simple biography and sayings of Jesus called 'Q'

            There is absolutely no evidence supporting the assertion that the gospels had early autographs of copies of an early copy. In fact the existing evidence is contrary to your assertions without evidence.
            Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-11-2022, 09:15 AM.
            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

            go with the flow the river knows . . .

            Frank

            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Then pretty much nothing from ancient history is a historical record.
              Broad brush false assertion. Yes many Roman records do exist that are considered historical records.

              I did not say "as a whole"; clearly, the Ba'al cycle is only relevant to part of the Tanakh. However, Psalm 2, for example, mocks the Ba'al cycle (in the Ba'al cycle, Ba'al revolts against his supreme deity and wins the highest position).
              This does not justify your previous assertion. There is abundant evidence much of the Tanakh has evolved from earlier writings from Syrian, Babylonian,and Ugarite texts including the Psalms.

              The Ten Commandments are evidence of ancient treaty forms, with a twist; whereas one copy would typically be placed in a temple and one given to the king, in Exodus both copies were placed in the tabernacle because YHWH was both God and king. The blessings and cursings in Deuteronomy are similarly related to ancient treaty forms, attesting to the antiquity of the work. These treaty forms were not in use in the time of the late Judaic monarchy, which is why the Torah should not be dated to around that time.
              There is abundant evidence that these are evolved forms of older content and language of previous ancient Babylonian, Canaanite, Ugaritic and Pheonician texts older than the Hebrew language. The Hebrew language is a relatively young language and alphabet evolved from older languages.


              This is all largely irrelevant. Stone is extremely cumbersome to use for writing extensive accounts, and papyrus and parchment just don't last long enough to be reliably around as original texts. Be cautious when arguing from a lack of evidence; the Hittites were thought to be mythological until evidence was discovered a century and a half ago. And yes, languages evolve; the book of Job abounds with archaic language.
              False, there are many much more ancient papyrus and parchment documents found throughout the Middle East.

              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • [QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1375812]
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post



                Gross misuse of begging the question my conclusions are based on the facts of historical records during the life of Jesus.
                Your conclusions are based on the fact that there are no records that you consider reliable because you conclude that the records that do exist are not reliable.

                Your assertions above are loaded with conjecture.
                Coming from the bloke who thinks that the Old Testament could not have been written before the repatriation of the Babylonian exiles? That. is. rich.

                The evidence clearly demonstrates that the later gospels are evolved, redacted and edited without documented authorship, which the most reasonable conclusion based on the evidence is that they evolved from oral testimony and possibly an early simple biography and sayings of Jesus called 'Q'
                The Q hypothesis is very much in doubt. Redaction can be considered unlikely on the grounds that redaction would have changed passages that conflict with doctrine of the major churches of the early years of Christianity. Passages that conflict with core theology were not altered - they still exist.

                There is absolutely no evidence supporting the assertion that the gospels had early autographs of copies of an early copy.
                "Absolutely no evidence" is somewhat overstating the facts.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Can you provide some indication of a place in Philo's writing where discussion of Paul, Christ, or Christianity would have been on topic? As has been stated before, if such discussions would not have been on topic, there would be no reasonable cause to expect Philo to broach the subject.
                  Based on th enear appoaclypic extraordinary dsscritions in the events of the gospels there is no reason that Philos would not have at least commented on the life of Jesus amd the events surrounding his life.

                  The alternative is how Hypatia_Alexandria described the likely life of Jesus in known history.
                  Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                  Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                  But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                  go with the flow the river knows . . .

                  Frank

                  I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    Historians general accept that Jesus was a real figure that lived during time the NT describes, a rabbi? that taught a Messianic message, claimed to be the Kig of the Jews, was condemned in Roman Court of Rebellion against Rome by claiming to be the King of the Jews, and was crucified under Roman Law. The question arises what about the Biblical Jesus Christ that skeptics seriously question ever existed. The life and records of Philo are a witness to this problem of the existence of the Biblical Jesus Christ.


                    Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/2u3xnm/why_didnt_philo_of_alexandria_write_about_jesus/



                    Why didn't Philo of Alexandria write about Jesus or Christianity?

                    Philo of Alexandria was born: 25 BCE in Alexandria, Egypt. He died: 47-50 CE. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Jesus is said to have existed on earth. He was living in or near Jerusalem when Jesus' miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occurred. Philo spent time in Jerusalem where he had intimate connections with the royal house of Judaea. One of Alexander's sons (and Philo's nephews, Marcus) was married to Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, tetrarch of Galilee and Peraea, 39-40. After the exile of Herod Antipas – villain of the Jesus saga – Marcus ruled as King of the Jews, 41-44 AD. But nothing from Philo on Jesus, the other 'King of the Jews'.

                    Philo was there when Jesus made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion with an earthquake, daytime darkness, and resurrection of the dead 'saints' took place and when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days. He was there when Jesus ascended into heaven. About thirty manuscripts and at least 850,000 words by Philo are extant. It was Philo who developed the doctrine of the Logos, or Word, and although Jesus, this Word incarnate, was walking around giving speeches and performing miracles, Philo wrote not one word about him or any of this.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    For this argument to carry any weight, you would have to prove that Philo would necessarily have written about Jesus such that his silence on the subject is definitive proof of non-existence.

                    Good luck.

                    The overall silence of Philo and Justus (which means nothing -- Philo may not have lived long enough to see Christianity become a threat, and make Jesus worthy of note; to report nothing about someone in your history was a typical means of oblique insult; and we know Philo at least never mentions Christianity either, so the silence about Jesus is hardly problematic -- as for Justus, we do not even possess his work, but from reports seems to have been concerned with political profiles).

                    Tektonics.org Bible apologetics and education
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Interestingly, there are ancient non-Christian historians who record these events.

                      Keep in mind that we've had supernovas appear in the sky that IIRC the records for amount to a single mention or two worldwide.
                      The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was a major catastrophe with an ash plume that could have been seen for hundreds and possibly thousands of miles, killed thousands of people, and destroyed two large cities, one of them an important trade hub in the region. And yet the only written record of the event comes from a letter composed by Pliny the Younger over two decades later.

                      Which is to say that not every significant occurance in the ancient world was well-documented, even when it was witnessed by and signficantly impacted the lives of thousands of people.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        The eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was a major catastrophe with an ash plume that could have been seen for hundreds and possibly thousands of miles
                        [My emphasis] would suggest that is pushing it rather.


                        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        killed thousands of people, and destroyed two large cities, one of them an important trade hub in the region. And yet the only written record of the event comes from a letter composed by Pliny the Younger over two decades later.

                        Which is to say that not every significant occurance in the ancient world was well-documented, even when it was witnessed by and signficantly impacted the lives of thousands of people.
                        As has been previously noted, some ancient texts were not preserved in the pre-Christian world, others were destroyed [often by later Christians] and other ancient authors did not elicit the same degree of interest within the Christian world as did the Christian religious texts [copied to spread the word] as well as various letters, homilies etc. from ECFs.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          [My emphasis] would suggest that is pushing it rather.


                          As has been previously noted, some ancient texts were not preserved in the pre-Christian world, others were destroyed [often by later Christians] and other ancient authors did not elicit the same degree of interest within the Christian world as did the Christian religious texts [copied to spread the word] as well as various letters, homilies etc. from ECFs.
                          You seem to have entirely missed the point.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                            Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/2u3xnm/why_didnt_philo_of_alexandria_write_about_jesus/



                            Why didn't Philo of Alexandria write about Jesus or Christianity?

                            [...]

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            I read a bit more of the source you linked to, and I had to laugh at the one individual who said something to the effect of, "If Jesus was so great, then why did nobody write about him?"

                            As if the New Testament writings don't exist.

                            Typical for the intellectual level of reddit, I suppose.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                              I read a bit more of the source you linked to, and I had to laugh at the one individual who said something to the effect of, "If Jesus was so great, then why did nobody write about him?"

                              As if the New Testament writings don't exist.

                              Typical for the intellectual level of reddit, I suppose.
                              The gospels and letters indeed do exist, but unfortunatel nothing of them dates before 75-100 AD, and there are absolutely no, nada, zip nor negatory of any independent sources dated to the time of Jesus,

                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                                The gospels and letters indeed do exist, but unfortunatel nothing of them dates before 75-100 AD, and there are absolutely no, nada, zip nor negatory of any independent sources dated to the time of Jesus,

                                Even if you wish to date the New Testament records as late as that (which is not very late at all by ancient standards), that still puts them within the lifetime of eyewitnesses. Indeed, Luke's preamble suggests he personally interviewed a number of firsthand witnesses when assembling his narrative, and the Book of John contains a number of unique details that mark it as having been written by an eyewitness.

                                As for "independent sources", that's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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