William F. Buckley Was Anti-Evo

[whag]

There's a great Firing Line debate from the early 1990s between ID proponents Michael Behe, Phillip Johnson, Willian F. Buckley, and David Berlinski and Eugenie Scott, Ken Miler, Barry Lyn, and Michael Ruse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gZ...6EDA3E866F4E4E


Really great stuff. Ken Miller shines here, smacking down all his opponents.

[rogue06]

There's a great Firing Line debate from the early 1990s between ID proponents Michael Behe, Phillip Johnson, Willian F. Buckley, and David Berlinski and Eugenie Scott, Ken Miler, Barry Lyn, and Michael Ruse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gZ...6EDA3E866F4E4E


Really great stuff. Ken Miller shines here, smacking down all his opponents.

Buckley has been dead know for awhile, and never presented himself as anything more than a political commentator.

And that was in 1997.

[lee_merrill]

There's a great Firing Line debate from the early 1990s...

Can you bring the best points that were made and post them here?

Blessings,
Lee

[Ronson]

Buckley was quite the odd bird. Memory like a trap, which I think was his greatest attribute. His best interviews were when he had an author on and would query them on their book(s) - and he would remember more than they did about them.

[shunyadragon]

There's a great Firing Line debate from the early 1990s between ID proponents Michael Behe, Phillip Johnson, Willian F. Buckley, and David Berlinski and Eugenie Scott, Ken Miler, Barry Lyn, and Michael Ruse.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7gZ...6EDA3E866F4E4E


Really great stuff. Ken Miller shines here, smacking down all his opponents.

Quite a list of great minds, and not a scientist in the lot.

[rogue06]

Quite a list of great minds, and not a scientist in the lot.

From their Wiki entries:

Michael J. Behe is an American biochemist, author, and advocate of the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design. He serves as professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania

Kenneth Raymond Miller is an American cell biologist and molecular biologist, currently Professor of Biology and Royce Family Professor for Teaching Excellence at Brown University. Miller's primary research focus is the structure and function of cell membranes, especially chloroplast thylakoid membranes.

Eugenie Carol Scott is an American physical anthropologist, a former university professor and educator who has been active in opposing the teaching of young Earth creationism and intelligent design in schools.

That's a biochemist, a cell and molecular biologist, and an anthropologist. All of which sound like scientists to me.

[whag]

Buckley has been dead know for awhile, and never presented himself as anything more than a political commentator.

Yes, he has been dead for a while now, and I never argued otherwise. Hence, why I said "was anti-evo".

In this debate, he took the evolutionary skeptic position. It's true, he didn't advertise his skeptical position anywhere else that I know of. But he does say in the debate:

"I retreat from any formulation of tonight's exchange that suggests that everyone on the other side should embrace creation. Not everyone on the affirmative side embraces creation. What we contend is that everyone should acknowledge creation as an alternative explanation for cosmic and biological happenings now thought by so many as naturalist in provenance and momentum."

He fundamentally misunderstands why ID has no place in biological study and why ID's allowance into the discussion is foolhardy. Speaking of which, my favorite line from the debate comes from Michael Ruse in response to Michael Behe:

"Did the designer design complex parasites? I mean, do you get the credit for the good things, and evolutionists get credit for all the bad things?"

And that was in 1997.

Yes, 1997. Thank you.

ETA: You're right. He was never anti-evo in the sense that he never explicitly said evolution is a hoax.

[lee_merrill]

... my favorite line from the debate comes from Michael Ruse in response to Michael Behe:

"Did the designer design complex parasites?..."

Could be, if God could curse the ground, he could also have created parasites at some time in the past.

"... cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you..." (Gen. 3:17–18)

Blessings,
Lee

[whag]

Could be, if God could curse the ground, he could also have created parasites at some time in the past.

"... cursed is the ground because of you;
in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you..." (Gen. 3:17–18)

Blessings,
Lee

Thorns and other supposed products of “The Fall” antedate human beings by hundreds of millions of years.

[lee_merrill]

Thorns and other supposed products of “The Fall” antedate human beings by hundreds of millions of years.

That's why I said "at some time in the past", not all evil in the world need be the result of Adam's fall, the devil and his fall could be a similar event.

Blessings,
Lee

[Ronson]

He fundamentally misunderstands why ID has no place in biological study and why ID's allowance into the discussion is foolhardy...

If your goal is to expose chinks in Buckley's logic, one need only note that he was a devout Catholic. That sums it up. But he was still a prominent political thinker.

[whag]

That's why I said "at some time in the past", not all evil in the world need be the result of Adam's fall, the devil and his fall could be a similar event.

Blessings,
Lee

You're getting into weird territory here. Thorns are simply leaves. What you're proposing is that an event like the devil's fall created objectively punitive thorns by modifying the leaf structure.

That's just thorns. What, to you, in nature and the universe entire, qualifies as a product of the fall or fall-like event? Let's discuss.

[whag]

If your goal is to expose chinks in Buckley's logic, one need only note that he was a devout Catholic. That sums it up. But he was still a prominent political thinker.

He was a giant of conservative thought.

Re: his ardent Catholicism, watch the debate! Ken Miller masterfully comes prepared with a devastating quote from Pope John Paul regarding the veracity of evolution and its logical concordance with Christian belief, which Buckley struggles to respond to.

[lee_merrill]

What, to you, in nature and the universe entire, qualifies as a product of the fall or fall-like event? Let's discuss.

Death and pain, for starters (see Rev. 21:4).

Blessings,
Lee

[whag]

Death and pain, for starters (see Rev. 21:4).

Blessings,
Lee

I can show you proof that death goes back in the natural history record billions of years, but all you’ll do is point to a mysterious event that antedated the creation of the earth.