Humanism?

[seer]

Is there a greater affirmation for humanism, a greater ideal for human worth, than the idea or belief that the Creator of the universe became human?

[Roy]

Is there a greater affirmation for humanism, a greater ideal for human worth, than the idea or belief that the Creator of the universe became human?

Yes.

The idea or belief that the creator of the universe became human before any other humans existed, provided the earliest humans with the humanist manifesto, and is actively providing us with a permanent example of living according to that manifesto as he lives among us, undying, supporting each new generation of humans in turn.

[Machinist]

Any more thoughts on this topic? I thought Roy's reply was quite creative.

[seer]

Any more thoughts on this topic? I thought Roy's reply was quite creative.

No Roy wasn't clever he just doesn't like the way God did things. As usual. The point is the atheist can offer no positive affirmation for human worth or purpose. After all in his world we are just accidental, biological meat puppets born to die...

[Juvenal]

After all in his world we are just accidental, biological meat puppets born to die...

You just don't like the way God did things.

[seer]

You just don't like the way God did things.

Which god are you talking about?

[Alien]

The point is the atheist can offer no positive affirmation for human worth or purpose. After all in his world we are just accidental, biological meat puppets born to die...

Even if that's true, so what? If we really are "meat puppets" then what you say about worth and purpose simply follows (within your world-view). The humanist/atheist is not obligated to offer meaning if there is none. It's almost as if you are saying we should believe in God just because it feels nicer. It may do so, but I suspect you are somehow suggesting that the existence or non-existence of those things somehow weighs when deciding what is true.

(For the record, I don't agree that without God we have no worth or purpose, but I'd prefer not to chase that rabbit now.)

[seer]

Even if that's true, so what? If we really are "meat puppets" then what you say about worth and purpose simply follows (within your world-view). The humanist/atheist is not obligated to offer meaning if there is none. It's almost as if you are saying we should believe in God just because it feels nicer. It may do so, but I suspect you are somehow suggesting that the existence or non-existence of those things somehow weighs when deciding what is true.

(For the record, I don't agree that without God we have no worth or purpose, but I'd prefer not to chase that rabbit now.)

No, it is not merely about feeling nice - it is about what human beings are by nature. And no, you can not offer a teleology (purpose) for humans from an atheistic world view. That isn't arbitrary.


"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." Richard Dawkins

[Machinist]

No Roy wasn't clever he just doesn't like the way God did things. As usual. The point is the atheist can offer no positive affirmation for human worth or purpose. After all in his world we are just accidental, biological meat puppets born to die...

I was just commenting on the subtle literary device he uses. It's a personification of the entire lineage of man. At least that's my interpretation.

[Alien]

No, it is not merely about feeling nice - it is about what human beings are by nature.

Which is what (as applies to worth and purpose)?

And no, you can not offer a teleology (purpose) for humans from an atheistic world view. That isn't arbitrary.


"The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference." Richard Dawkins

He's right about that, but I think he means purpose of the universe, or maybe some kind of ultimate purpose. I'm not sure you can get that from theism either, as far as humans are concerned. God may have same purpose for it all, but it may not include us other than incidentally. On the other hand we have purposes all the time. I'm going to get up and go to the kitchen soon. My purpose is to get something to drink. And worth is a subjective thing. Things have a worth that's assigned to them by thinking beings. What's a dollar bill worth?

[seer]

Which is what (as applies to worth and purpose)?

That man is not an accidental being, he was created for a purpose and has worth that transcends changeability and human whims...

He's right about that, but I think he means purpose of the universe, or maybe some kind of ultimate purpose. I'm not sure you can get that from theism either, as far as humans are concerned. God may have same purpose for it all, but it may not include us other than incidentally. On the other hand we have purposes all the time. I'm going to get up and go to the kitchen soon. My purpose is to get something to drink. And worth is a subjective thing. Things have a worth that's assigned to them by thinking beings. What's a dollar bill worth?

Right, your purposes would be largely relative and arbitrary. In my view we were created for purpose - to love our fellow man, and to love God and enjoy Him for ever.

[shunyadragon]

Any more thoughts on this topic? I thought Roy's reply was quite creative.

Humanism is based objectively on the factual evidence of the nature of humanity and our natural physical existence. No problem with this basis for humanism.

[seer]

Humanism is based objectively on the factual evidence of the nature of humanity and our natural physical existence. No problem with this basis for humanism.

But the nature of humanity also includes much selfishness and cruelty - so what are you on about?

[shunyadragon]

That man is not an accidental being, he was created for a purpose and has worth that transcends changeability and human whims...

The scientific view of the origins and history of humanity and the nature of our physical existence is that there are no 'accidents.' Check you dictionary on the definition of 'accident;

Right, your purposes would be largely relative and arbitrary. In my view we were created for purpose - to love our fellow man, and to love God and enjoy Him for ever.

Comparing the many diverse and conflicting views of the different religions, divisions and sects in history this represents a largely subjective, relative and arbitrary view of the purpose of the nature of our existence.
in history,

[shunyadragon]

But the nature of humanity also includes much selfishness and cruelty - so what are you on about?

True, from the many religious conflicting perspectives and the rather violent tribal OT view of God 'How about that?'

Apparently from your perspective God determined human 'rather selfish, violent and at tribal war.