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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Quite so - the familiar terms for those dates have not always been the same. The current term for the 14th is Passover Eve, the current term for the 15th is Passover.



    They are issues, though those same definitions and issues don't vary markedly from those found in other languages: "gloaming" for example.

    Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall.


    If the 15th of Nisan conforms with the pattern of a Sabbath (assuming that the same pattern is common to all sects), it would be impossible to conduct the sacrifice at sunset at the close of the fourteenth. Note that the lights are already on before the Samaritan sacrifice.





    It would seem that it was celebrated on 14 Nisan at least once in Old Testament records.
    Numbers 9:2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

    The whole rite of Passover observed on the 14th.



    Ignores the fact that at the beginning of the day, it is twilight (particularly in circumstances where the day actually begins with (the earliest possible time) sunset, as you have stated).



    It MAY indeed be so understood. A different reading and understanding is not prohibited by "may," in fact the idea that alternatives can be permitted is inherent in the use of the term.



    So the writers of the gospels considered the start of the festival of unleaveneds to begin on the day before the 15th (the 15th being termed Passover in the temple rite, not the 14th as stated in the Torah). It should also be noted that the Pharisees shifted the time of the sacrifice to mid afternoon during the Hasmonean dynasty, which would indicate during Salome Alexandra's reign. The rite as conducted by the temple is established by the Book of Jubilees 49:10-12, not by the Torah. Reading back from Jubilees into the Torah will result in the impression that Passover is to be celebrated in the day's end evening.



    The problem arises with nothing more than the differences in terminology between one Jewish sect and another.

    http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/
    passover_unleavened.jpg

    This year, the 1st of Nisan (Aviv in the Samaritan calendar) started at sundown on the 1st of April. The 14th of Nisan started at sundown on the 14th of April. (near as I can tell.)
    Continue to wriggle as much as you like.

    The fact remains that those synoptic texts are contradictory, regardless of your attempts to torture the texts and introduce erroneous as well as unsupported allegations in an attempt to reconcile them..

    The question could not have been put to Jesus on 15 Nissan if he had been executed and buried before sunset on 14th.


    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Continue to wriggle as much as you like.

      The fact remains that those synoptic texts are contradictory, regardless of your attempts to torture the texts and introduce erroneous as well as unsupported allegations in an attempt to reconcile them..

      The question could not have been put to Jesus on 15 Nissan if he had been executed and buried before sunset on 14th.

      Quite obviously, the question could not have been put to Jesus on the fifteenth, but it could have been put to him on the fourteenth. The fact that the Samaritan Jews refer to the 14th day of the first month as the first day of Unleaveneds demonstrates that to be perfectly possible if Jesus was not adherent to the temple rite.

      Where was his home base again?


      Oh yes. The Galilee. That's somewhat closer to Samaria than it is to Judea.

      I must admit though, I never expected the gospels to point so evidently to Samaria as the background for the rite followed by Jesus.
      Last edited by tabibito; 07-06-2022, 11:34 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Quite obviously, the question could not have been put to Jesus on the fifteenth, but it could have been put to him on the fourteenth. The fact that the Samaritan Jews refer to the 14th day of the first month as the first day of Unleaveneds demonstrates that to be perfectly possible if Jesus was not adherent to the temple rite.

        Where was his home base again?


        Oh yes. The Galilee. That's somewhat closer to Samaria than it is to Judea.

        I must admit though, I never expected the gospels to point so evidently to Samaria as the background for the rite followed by Jesus.


        So you are back to suggesting Jesus was a Samaritan!

        That must explain the parable - it was a PR exercise!
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



          So you are back to suggesting Jesus was a Samaritan!
          Hardly - he was of the tribe of Judah. The Synoptic gospels however do indicate a certain similarity to the Samaritan style and conduct of a Passover celebration.

          Jesus was buried on the day of Preparation according to all four gospels - that term is not anywhere to be found in the Old Testament record. It is found in relation to the Passover celebration of the temple rite in the first century. "Day of Preparation" is the fourteenth of Nisan. The day that the Passover must be sacrificed is the fourteenth of Nisan. The inescapable conclusion from Luke's record is that the meal was conducted early in the same day that Jesus was crucified. Luke's internal record - stand alone - without reference to any outside source.
          Last edited by tabibito; 07-06-2022, 12:09 PM.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Hardly - he was of the tribe of Judah. The Synoptic gospels however do indicate a certain similarity to the Samaritan style and conduct of a Passover celebration.
            No they do not. If so, why did Jesus want a room?

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Jesus was buried on the day of Preparation according to all four gospels
            It does not follow that he was buried on that day, given that we have no extraneous contemporary records of this event.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            - that term is not anywhere to be found in the Old Testament record. It is found in relation to the Passover celebration of the temple rite in the first century. "Day of Preparation" is the fourteenth of Nisan. The day that the Passover must be sacrificed is the fourteenth of Nisan.
            The sacrifice was at twilight/sunset on 14th. The Passover meal would have been taken after sunset after the lamb had been roasted i.e. technically the next day.

            However, keep wriggling - this is becoming very amusing.



            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              No they do not. If so, why did Jesus want a room?

              It does not follow that he was buried on that day, given that we have no extraneous contemporary records of this event.

              The sacrifice was at twilight/sunset on 14th. The Passover meal would have been taken after sunset after the lamb had been roasted i.e. technically the next day.

              However, keep wriggling - this is becoming very amusing.


              It is right there in plain black and white ... in a PRIMARY source ... produced by the very people who conduct the Passover according to the Samaritan rite ... the Samaritan Passover is celebrated by the Samaritans at the start of day of the fourteenth of Abib (corresponding to Nisan in the Jewish calendar).

              Not all of the Jews followed the rite as prescribed by the temple authorities of the first century. Like the Samaritans, the Synoptics' authors state that the first day of Unleaveneds is also known as the day the lamb must be sacrificed. The Synoptics' authors show that the Passover meal was eaten during the night of the fourteenth. And again, as is shown in the Primary source (i.e. the records produced by the Samaritans themselves) the Passover is celebrated at the start of the fourteenth.

              Here it is again, just in case you missed it the first time. Replete (again) with the URL.

              http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/
              passover_unleavened.jpg
              The Passover sacrifice in 2022 was conducted in the evening of the 14th of April, the start of the 14th of Abib. I even added a red arrow pointing to it so that it wouldn't be missed.
              The date that the Passover is sacrificed and the date of the first day of Unleavened bread is the same. I even encircled the dates in red so that the point wouldn't be missed.
              Last edited by tabibito; 07-06-2022, 12:52 PM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                It is right there in plain black and white ... in a PRIMARY source ... produced by the very people who conduct the Passover according to the Samaritan rite ... the Samaritan Passover is celebrated by the Samaritans at the start of day of the fourteenth of Abib (corresponding to Nisan in the Jewish calendar).
                https://www.hebrewinisrael.net/blog/...e-learn-torah/

                The term בין הערביים –Beyin Ha’Arbayim is temporal construct form used to describe a specific time of day, and found in several places in the Bible. One of the most important places it is used is in connection to the time of the Pesach sacrifice as prescribed in Exodus 12:6. This term has created many arguments over when to do things, and in fact has raised the question of how does the Torah understand time in overall.

                The Problems
                There are two problems we find with this term which has led many to be confused on when the Pesach is to be done. The first problem is that the verses which deal with the time seem to not be clear what day the Pesach is to be done. Is it the 14th, the 15th, or even the end of the 13th? The second problem is that during the second temple, a new interpretation was created. It seems that due to the large amounts of people showing for the feast, it was impossible to do the Pesach at the short time prescribed (I will get to it in a moment). Because of this new interpretation, we have a new layer of data which has caused many people to be even more confused about this term.

                Word Analysis
                The word בין is a preposition that means between, hence this term means “Between the evenings”.

                The word ערב-Erev means in Modern Hebrew “evening”, but in Biblical Hebrew it means Sunset. In Akkadian the word Arbu means to enter–meaning the sun enters its resting place.

                The suffix -yim is a dual form used in Semitic languages to indicate two of something. It is also used for the plural of some words that usually come in twos, but it can be used for the regular plural.

                Second Temple Interpretation
                The new interpretation used in the second temple attempted to interpret the word Erev as having the meaning of “Evening” which means that it is not the sun setting, but rather the sun moving to the west. This meant that the time was of several hours and lasts from midday to the evening. This interpretation enabled the large number of celebrates to do a very long service which was not limited to just slaughtering the animals. The Mishnah and Talmud in Pesachim 5 describes singing the Hallel (Psalms 113-118) and a complex sacrifice which needs to be manipulated in different stages. This practice created a need to expand the time frame of the sacrifice to midday.

                The Two Evenings And Sacrifice
                What are the two evenings? The answer is the two settings of light. The first setting is of the actual sun, and the second of the light. This means that the time of Bein Ha’Arbayim is modernly known as “Dusk” or “Twilight”. This is the common meaning in Semitic languages, and is the most accurate meaning based on the etymology.

                The issue they were having in the second temple was that dusk lasts in the land of Israel for about 15-25 minutes, which is not enough time for the whole ritual they created (see Mishnah Pesachim Chapter 5). What I find is that the Pesach ritual as descried in Talmudic sources is not the same as the Torah, for the Torah does not say you need to be done with everything in this time frame, only that you need to start. In a time when people slaughtered for themselves, this could have been done in minutes. The Torah does not say anywhere that a Kohen has to do it, nor does it say that they (i.e the Kohanim) are to collect the blood, or even throw it. The Pesach seems to be less of a sacrifice and more of a family/tribal affair led by the families. We never find in Torah a description of and altar being used, or any of the regular blood manipulation as found with the sacrifices. I find it fair to say that these details can be argued as introduced later by Leviticus, but one must remember that the Torah says in Exodus 12:9:

                [...]The other part to the confusion is what part of the day does the time frame belong to? Exodus 12:18 clearly connects the feast of unleavened bread to the doing of the Pesach, but the text also says the it is the 14th in the evening. If we remember that the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy have a “day starts at sunset” concept, the confusion becomes evident: if it is the 14th in the evening, then is it the end of the 13th day after sunset or the end of the 14th?

                Some have tried to explain that the day begins at sunrise based on Leviticus and Genesis (De Vaux, Milgrom and more), and claim that the day has not ended and it is still the 14th. These arguments ignore the difference between Leviticus, which is temple centered where services are only during the day, and the rest of the bible which is not (the Genesis argument is too long to explain here, and we might deal with it at another time). On top of this, the Pesach is unusual because it is an individuals responsibility and is done by the owner regardless of the Kohanim, and therefore is actually different than usual temple practice. It also is done at a time when usual temple services end–with the last evening offering of the Tamid (Numbers 28:1-10).

                The reason the text uses such difficult language is because of the ambiguity of this time of day.
                On the one hand it is still light time, but on the other the sun is not out and has set behind the horizon. It is also the split-second change between one part of time and the other, leaving it in a problematic state in time recognition. This problem was recognized by other cultures, and this time of day was seen as a middle ground and a border between day and night, and the different days.

                To avoid any confusion the text created a link in chapter 12 to the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th, making it clear that this time is connected to the next day, and is to be done at the end of the 14th leading to the 15th day. One can notice a slight roughness in the transition between verses 14 and 15 where the text shifts from the Pesach to the feast. The subject of the whole chapter is the Pesach, and this section from v. 15 to 20 is “out of place”. This is not an unusual thing in the Torah, and sections which relate to one thing will be inserted into the storyline by association or relevance (S. Talmon “The Ways of the Biblical narrative, Hebrew University 1965).

                When reading the text in full, one can see the transition point in verse 15 when the subject changes from the laws of Pesach to the laws of Chag Hamatzot.[...] In conclusion, the term is used for indicating a time that belongs to the end of the light time of the day when the sun sets, but there is still light. This time of day is in limbo and creates a difficult time reference which has created confusion. The understanding of this term is that it is used to describe the time between two days, and exists both in the previous day and the next. It is a transitional time which takes the person out of the previous day and takes him into the next.



                From here: https://www.israelite-samaritans.com...ver/#sacrifice C&P is not available

                The day of the sacrifice arrives. At twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month the whole community of Israel gathers in the magnificent square. [...] The High Priest begins with the sacrifice prayer and announces the ritual slaughter. The experienced slaughterers bring the sheep to the altar and slaughter them.


                Interestingly there is an altar - no altar is mentioned in Exodus 12.

                That site continues:

                At about two and a half hours before midnight we place the sheep on their spits into the hot ovens.[..] In the middle of the night. at the time when Angel of Destruction went out to slay the Egyptian first born we remove the sheep from the ovens take them off the skewers and transfer them on to large plates. [...] continue to sing as we bring the platters home. There we eat the meat of the sacrifice in haste with matzot and bitter herbs. We bring any remains back to the fire and burn them before dawn.



                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  So - nothing usable for demonstrating that the Synoptics' authors might have gotten something wrong.

                  The Samaritan citation in particular: "The day of the sacrifice arrives." Translating that into Koine Greek would produce the core of Luke 22:7, and it would be pretty hard to argue that a given day arrives 3 hours or less before it ends.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    So - nothing usable for demonstrating that the Synoptics' authors might have gotten something wrong.

                    The Samaritan citation in particular: "The day of the sacrifice arrives." Translating that into Koine Greek would produce the core of Luke 22:7, and it would be pretty hard to argue that a given day arrives 3 hours or less before it ends.
                    The day of the sacrifice arrives but that day is spent in preparation and the sacrifice is offered as that day ends - twilight - sunset/ night.

                    The eating of the sacrifice with bitter herbs and matzot takes place after dark as that Samaritan site makes clear - i.e. the next day.

                    Nor were the audiences for whom these gospel texts were composed especially au fait with the minutiae of Jewish rites and holy days.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      The day of the sacrifice arrives but that day is spent in preparation and the sacrifice is offered as that day ends - twilight - sunset/ night.
                      "The day of the sacrifice arrives. At twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month the whole community of Israel gathers in the magnificent square." Even if the text were ambiguous enough to allow for your ... interesting ... interpretation, the plain fact is that the information provided by the Samaritans themselves states unequivocably that the sacrifice in 2022 was conducted at sunset of the 14th of April. Where the Samaritan calendar is correlated with the Gregorian calendar, the Samaritan day begins at sunset on the Gregorian day. Thus, if the Samaritan Abib 14th is said to be on April 14th, sunset of April 14 is the start of Abib 14. Abib 14 in (Samaritan year) 3660, 2022CE started on the 14th April - at sunset on the 14th April - and the Passover was sacrificed at sunset on 14th April 2022 CE. None of your ... interesting ... interpretations can in any way get around that fact.

                      The eating of the sacrifice with bitter herbs and matzot takes place after dark as that Samaritan site makes clear - i.e. the next day.
                      That site cannot be used to determine whether the sacrifice is conducted in the evening at the start of the day or at the end of the day. The night then might be the 14th, if the sacrifice is conducted in the evening at the start of the day, or it might be the fifteenth if it is conducted during the evening at the end of the day.

                      And by the way - the Jewish site's content that you posted

                      "the text (Exodus 12:18) also says the it is the 14th in the evening. If we remember that the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy have a “day starts at sunset” concept, the confusion becomes evident:
                      if it is the 14th in the evening, then is it the end of the 13th day after sunset or the end of the 14th?"


                      Your argument would only make sense if the evening could only come at the end of the day: you're arguing against your own source. (which would be legitimate if you were not trying to use it as support for your argument.)
                      Last edited by tabibito; 07-07-2022, 08:19 AM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        "The day of the sacrifice arrives. At twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month the whole community of Israel gathers in the magnificent square." Even if the text were ambiguous enough to allow for your ... interesting ... interpretation, the plain fact is that the information provided by the Samaritans themselves states unequivocably that the sacrifice in 2022 was conducted at sunset of the 14th of April. Where the Samaritan calendar is correlated with the Gregorian calendar, the Samaritan day begins at sunset on the Gregorian day. Thus, if the Samaritan Abib 14th is said to be on April 14th, sunset of April 14 is the start of Abib 14. Abib 14 in (Samaritan year) 3660, 2022CE started on the 14th April - at sunset on the 14th April - and the Passover was sacrificed at sunset on 14th April 2022 CE. None of your ... interesting ... interpretations can in any way get around that fact.



                        That site cannot be used to determine whether the sacrifice is conducted in the evening at the start of the day or at the end of the day. The night then might be the 14th, if the sacrifice is conducted in the evening at the start of the day, or it might be the fifteenth if it is conducted during the evening at the end of the day.

                        And by the way - the Jewish site's content that you posted

                        "the text (Exodus 12:18) also says the it is the 14th in the evening. If we remember that the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy have a “day starts at sunset” concept, the confusion becomes evident:
                        if it is the 14th in the evening, then is it the end of the 13th day after sunset or the end of the 14th?"


                        Your argument would only makes sense if you were claiming that the evening can only come at the end of the day: you're arguing against your own source. (which would be legitimate if you were not trying to use it as support for your argument.)
                        Well of course what would present-day Samaritans know compared to a pseudonymous contributor to an insignificant Christian internet discussion board?

                        Sunset is at the end of a Jewish day and Exodus 12 refers to twilight - evening/night/sunset on the fourteenth day.

                        You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight.

                        That quote you used from the the site I cited is posing a question about confusion : My emphasis

                        Exodus 12:18 clearly connects the feast of unleavened bread to the doing of the Pesach, but the text also says the it is the 14th in the evening. If we remember that the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy have a “day starts at sunset” concept, the confusion becomes evident: if it is the 14th in the evening, then is it the end of the 13th day after sunset or the end of the 14th?

                        Some have tried to explain that the day begins at sunrise based on Leviticus and Genesis (De Vaux, Milgrom and more), and claim that the day has not ended and it is still the 14th. These arguments ignore the difference between Leviticus, which is temple centered where services are only during the day, and the rest of the bible which is not (the Genesis argument is too long to explain here, and we might deal with it at another time). On top of this, the Pesach is unusual because it is an individuals responsibility and is done by the owner regardless of the Kohanim, and therefore is actually different than usual temple practice. It also is done at a time when usual temple services end–with the last evening offering of the Tamid (Numbers 28:1-10)

                        [...]

                        To avoid any confusion the text created a link in chapter 12 to the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th, making it clear that this time is connected to the next day, and is to be done at the end of the 14th leading to the 15th day.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Well of course what would present-day Samaritans know compared to a pseudonymous contributor to an insignificant Christian internet discussion board?
                          I even pointed out that the citation was an excerpt from your own (Jewish) source. And there is you, claiming that I am contradicting the Samaritan source. Or are you perhaps trying to claim that your Samaritan source is somehow in conflict with the head of the Samaritan sect in his setting of the calendar. It is your interpretation, and only in your own opinion, that sets the two at odds.

                          The same Jewish source that says the temple rang in changes from the Torah.

                          The Samaritan sources do not accept the validity of the Jewish interpretations. The Samaritan sources also identify the first day of Unleavened bread as the fourteenth, in contrast with the Jewish and Torah sources which identify it as the fifteenth. I note with interest that the day of Passover is identified as the first Day of Unleavened Bread by both parties. Perhaps you will condescend to consider the significance of that: The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to the Samaritans is the fourteenth. The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to the Jews, is the fifteenth. The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to Torah, do not fall on the same day. Yet both Samaritan and Jew declare that they are adherent to the true meaning of Torah and that their opposite number is not.

                          By the temple rite, the Synoptic gospels are internally self contradictory. By the the Samaritan rite, they are perfectly coherent. So, of course, YOU claim that the Synoptics' authors must have been writing with a garbled concept of the temple rite.
                          Last edited by tabibito; 07-07-2022, 09:12 AM.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            I even pointed out that the citation was an excerpt from your own (Jewish) source. And there is you, claiming that I am contradicting the Samaritan source.

                            The same source that says the temple rang in changes from the Torah.

                            The Samaritan sources do not accept the validity of the Jewish interpretations. The Samaritan sources also identify the first day of Unleavened bread as the fourteenth, in contrast with the Jewish and Torah sources which identify it as the fifteenth. I note with interest that the day of Passover is identified as the first Day of Unleavened Bread by both parties. Perhaps you will condescend to consider the significance of that: The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to the Samaritans is the fourteenth. The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to the Jews, is the fifteenth. The Passover and the First Day of Unleavened, according to Torah, do not fall on the same day. Yet both Samaritan and Jew declare that they are adherent to the true meaning of Torah and that their opposite number is not.

                            By the temple rite, the Synoptic gospels are internally self contradictory. By the the Samaritan rite, they are perfectly coherent. So, of course, YOU claim that the Synoptics' authors must have been writing with a garbled concept of the temple rite.

                            The Samaritans still carry out their sacrifice as the 14th day comes to an end. They do not sacrifice on the morning of 14th or the evening of 13th. And after the sacrifice as 14th ends the sun sets and a new day arises - 15th.

                            Still keep wriggling. I am rather enjoying it.

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              The Samaritans still carry out their sacrifice as the 14th day comes to an end. They do not sacrifice on the morning of 14th or the evening of 13th. And after the sacrifice as 14th ends the sun sets and a new day arises - 15th.
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                              Here it is again, just in case you missed it the first two times. Replete (again) with the URL.

                              http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/
                              passover_unleavened.jpg

                              The Passover sacrifice in 2022 was conducted in the evening of the 14th of April, the start of the 14th of Abib. I even added a red arrow pointing to it so that it wouldn't be missed.
                              The date that the Passover is sacrificed and the date of the first day of Unleavened bread is the same. I even encircled the dates in red so that the point wouldn't be missed.
                              That is a copy of the official Samaritan post. Feel free to admit that you can't address the fact that the evening of the 14th April 2022CE was the start of the 14th of Aviv (the name of the first month of the Samaritan calendar) 3660 Samaritan Calendar. Also feel free to admit that the Passover Sacrifice was conducted during the evening of 14th April 2022CE aka the start of 14th of Aviv 3660 Samaritan Calendar.

                              Not that it will be any surprise if you continue to attempt to avoid the issue.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post



                                That is a copy of the official Samaritan post. Feel free to admit that you can't address the fact that the evening of the 14th April 2022CE was the start of the 14th of Aviv (the name of the first month of the Samaritan calendar) 3660 Samaritan Calendar. Also feel free to admit that the Passover Sacrifice was conducted during the evening of 14th April 2022CE aka the start of 14th of Aviv 3660 Samaritan Calendar.

                                Not that it will be any surprise if you continue to attempt to avoid the issue.
                                You keep insisting that sunset/twilight is the start of a new day. And ignore the comment made in my link that:

                                To avoid any confusion the text created a link in chapter 12 to the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th, making it clear that this time is connected to the next day, and is to be done at the end of the 14th leading to the 15th day.


                                I fail to see how you can keep contending that the sacrifice takes place at "the start of 14th". As is clear from the text it self-evidently does not.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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