How can we know that God is?

[tabibito]

I shall leave you to merrily trundle around on your favourite hobbyhorse.

I have made my points and there is an end to it.

It seems that I've been playing chess with a pigeon.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It seems that I've been playing chess with a pigeon.

On the contrary I have put questions to you that you have not satisfactorily addressed. You have attempted to extend 14 Nisan beyond its Jewish bounds in order to attempt make all four gospel accounts harmonise. That is not credible.

[tabibito]

On the contrary I have put questions to you that you have not satisfactorily addressed. You have attempted to extend 14 Nisan beyond its Jewish bounds in order to attempt make all four gospel accounts harmonise. That is not credible.

I did what? The Hebrew calendar day starts during sunset. Nothing prevents a Passover sacrifice at the beginning of the day. And the beginning of the day is followed very shortly by nightfall.

You can't provide an answer for; "how could Jesus have been executed the day after his dead body was interred?" because none of your sources address the issue, so you fall back on the tired old canard that your own questions haven't been answered satisfactorily. Meanwhile, you have not even attempted to answer the critical question.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I did what? The Hebrew calendar day starts during sunset. Nothing prevents a Passover sacrifice at the beginning of the day. And the beginning of the day is followed very shortly by nightfall.

You can't provide an answer for; "how could Jesus have been executed the day after his dead body was interred?" because none of your sources address the issue, so you fall back on the tired old canard that your own questions haven't been answered satisfactorily. Meanwhile, you have not even attempted to answer the critical question.

No you haven't. You have attempted to extend a date beyond all reasonable evidence because you are trying to harmonise four disparate texts. If the Synoptic accounts of a Seder meal are correct, then that would have taken place towards the end of 14 and into 15 Nisan. Therefore Jesus could not have had his dinner, been arrested, interrogated, tried, and executed before 15 Nisan. The timings do not fit and it's not credible.

Of course if John is correct then the Synoptics are wrong.

[tabibito]

No you haven't. You have attempted to extend a date beyond all reasonable evidence because you are trying to harmonise four disparate texts. If the Synoptic accounts of a Seder meal are correct, then that would have taken place towards the end of 14 and into 15 Nisan. Therefore Jesus could not have had his dinner, been arrested, interrogated, tried, and executed before 15 Nisan. The timings do not fit and it's not credible.

Of course if John is correct then the Synoptics are wrong.

The synoptic gospels do not contradict John on the issue of the day of crucifixion. There is no record of a prohibition of sacrificing the Passover at the beginning of the day. The synoptics clearly state that Jesus was buried on the fourteenth, and you know it. How could he have been executed on the fifteenth? Until you can answer the question, you have no basis for challenging the gospel accounts.

Equally to the point, John has the last supper prior to the sacrifices conducted by the Jews, just as the synoptics do. That it is the same meal is obvious from the account of Judas being revealed as the traitor.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The synoptic gospels do not contradict John on the issue of the day of crucifixion.

Then explain why all three Synoptics have Jesus and his disciples eating that Seder meal? The references are quite clear. My emphasis

Matthew 22 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is near; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples
Matthew 22 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples

Mark 14 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
Mark 14 17 When it was evening, he came with the twelve

Luke 22 11 Listen,” and say to the owner of the house, ‘The teacher asks you, “Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?
Luke 22 14 When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. ¹⁵ He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer

How did he eat the meal at the end of 14 Nisan, get arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried before the end of 14 Nisan?

John has the execution on 14 Nisan to draw a direct parallel between Jesus and the paschal lamb, i.e. a sacrifice.

You appear to be taking the position that the Jewish priests were following the Sadducean calendar and Jesus the Pharisaic calendar. However, where is the evidence in the texts for that, and if that was the case why is there such antagonism between the scribes and Pharisees and thevarious Jesus figures in those four gospels?

There has also been the suggestion that the priests followed a Judean calendar and Jesus a Galilean calendar. However, again, where in those texts is there any evidence for that?

Of these various suggestions the most elaborate calendaric proposal is that of Annie Jaubert [1965]. According to this Jesus prepared for and ate the Passover meal following an Essene solar calendar. However, once again there is no evidence from the NT that Jesus followed a solar calendar as opposed to the lunisolar calendar. Furthermore, the account in John where his death occurs on the eve of Passover, was in accordance with the official calendar which was lunar or lunisolar.

Like yourself, Jaubert [and indeed others] have tried to harmonise the four contradictory gospel accounts, and with very limited success.

[tabibito]

Then explain why all three Synoptics have Jesus and his disciples eating that Seder meal? The references are quite clear. My emphasis

Matthew 22 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is near; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples
Matthew 22 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples

Mark 14 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
Mark 14 17 When it was evening, he came with the twelve

Luke 22 11 Listen,” and say to the owner of the house, ‘The teacher asks you, “Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?
Luke 22 14 When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. ¹⁵ He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer

How did he eat the meal at the end of 14 Nisan, get arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried before the end of 14 Nisan?

John has the execution on 14 Nisan to draw a direct parallel between Jesus and the paschal lamb, i.e. a sacrifice.

You appear to be taking the position that the Jewish priests were following the Sadducean calendar and Jesus the Pharisaic calendar. However, where is the evidence in the texts for that, and if that was the case why is there such antagonism between the scribes and Pharisees and thevarious Jesus figures in those four gospels?

There has also been the suggestion that the priests followed a Judean calendar and Jesus a Galilean calendar. However, again, where in those texts is there any evidence for that?

Of these various suggestions the most elaborate calendaric proposal is that of Annie Jaubert [1965]. According to this Jesus prepared for and ate the Passover meal following an Essene solar calendar. However, once again there is no evidence from the NT that Jesus followed a solar calendar as opposed to the lunisolar calendar. Furthermore, the account in John where his death occurs on the eve of Passover, was in accordance with the official calendar which was lunar or lunisolar.

Like yourself, Jaubert [and indeed others] have tried to harmonise the four contradictory gospel accounts, and with very limited success.

Jesus most certainly did not follow the Essene calendar. John makes it clear that the timing of the events is set against the Judean liturgical calendar (if you would rather that term than the "temple rite"). The evidence for the different rites is in the fact that before the last supper, it was the day when the Passover must be sacrificed (aka the day of Preparation) and after Jesus is buried, it is still the day of Preparation. Pharisees were numbered among Jesus' followers. Theological dictionaries give "evening," "late," or "later" for οψιος, LSJ (not a particularly theological dictionary) gives "late," or "later." I am yet to check usage patterns for the word to see whether LSJ is deficient.

But if you want to believe that Jesus was interred the day before he was executed, feel free to do so.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Jesus most certainly did not follow the Essene calendar. John makes it clear that the timing of the events is set against the Judean liturgical calendar (if you would rather that term than the "temple rite"). The evidence for the different rites is in the fact that before the last supper, it was the day when the Passover must be sacrificed (aka the day of Preparation) and after Jesus is buried, it is still the day of Preparation. Pharisees were numbered among Jesus' followers. Theological dictionaries give "evening," "late," or "later" for οψιος, LSJ (not a particularly theological dictionary) gives "late," or "later." I am yet to check usage patterns for the word to see whether LSJ is deficient.

But if you want to believe that Jesus was interred the day before he was executed, feel free to do so.

It is not about my beliefs. I am asking you to explain:

1.Why do all three Synoptics have Jesus referring to the Passover meal and taking it in the evening [Luke mentions the hour]?

2.How did Jesus then get arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried between eating that evening meal and the next day [15 Nisan]?

[tabibito]

It is not about my beliefs. I am asking you to explain:

1.Why do all three Synoptics have Jesus referring to the Passover meal and taking it in the evening [Luke mentions the hour]?

2.How did Jesus then get arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried between eating that evening meal and the next day [15 Nisan]?

Abbrv - Nisan 14.jpg
A somewhat abbreviated rundown. The original is still a work in progress, but it will include all the elements, and those which do not quite match e.g. Judas identified as the traitor has different details depending on author, so those differences will be separately noted, in the same way that Mark's and Luke's records are separately listed under 1st Day of Unleavened Bread.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Abbrv - Nisan 14.jpg
A somewhat abbreviated rundown. The original is still a work in progress, but it will include all the elements, and those which do not quite match e.g. Judas identified as the traitor has different details depending on author, so those differences will be separately noted, in the same way that Mark's and Luke's records are separately listed under 1st Day of Unleavened Bread.

I would prefer that you [in your own words] address those two questions.

[tabibito]

I would prefer that you [in your own words] address those two questions.

Those are my own words, which should have been obvious when I said that it was a work in progress.

[tabibito]

[quote=H_A]

2.How did Jesus then get arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried between eating that evening meal and the next day [15 Nisan]?

The diagram shows how it could happen, and it is based on John's record. From the meal to the burial, all occurring on the same day, which even your own sources admit.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Those are my own words, which should have been obvious when I said that it was a work in progress.

That does not address the question.

If this [according to the Synoptics] Passover meal was taken in the evening, how did all those subsequent events occur before the following day according to the Jewish calendar?

Your chart is not credible if you want to claim all four canonical gospels are in agreement.

[tabibito]

That does not address the question.

If this [according to the Synoptics] Passover meal was taken in the evening, how did all those subsequent events occur before the following day according to the Jewish calendar?

Your chart is not credible if you want to claim all four canonical gospels are in agreement.

Oh - so you want the Passover meal to be eaten in the evening, despite the clear injunction that it is to be eaten at night¹, when, as I already pointed out, the word translated as "evening" is opsios, for which the LSJ dictionary does not support "evening" as a translation. As I also pointed out, I haven't done a complete trace of the usages of opsios, so I don't know if the LSJ is deficient.

¹The Seder is the traditional Passover meal that includes reading, drinking 4 cups of wine, telling stories, eating special foods, singing, and other Passover traditions.

As per Biblical command, it is held after nightfall (Exodus 12:8 and Numbers 9:11)

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Oh - so you want the Passover meal to be eaten in the evening,

I do not "want" anything.

I have cited what all three Synoptic authors wrote as those texts have come down to us, and two of them specifically refer to the Passover meal being taken in the evening. Luke writes "When the hour came"