How can we know that God is?

[tabibito]

If there is no conflict explain why all three Synoptics write of preparations for the Passover. refer to the meal taking place in the evening [after dusk i.e. the next day - 15 Nisan] and Luke has Jesus telling his disciples that he has "eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you"?

In the standard calendar, there are two terms of night. The first begins at midnight and continues until dawn. The second begins with nightfall and continues until midnight. In the Hebrew calendar, each day has two evenings. In the Hebrew calendar, - the first evening begins during sunset and continues until nightfall. The second evening of the day starts at 3 pm and continues until after sunset but before nightfall (nominally 6 pm). There was some Rabbinical argument about whether the first evening spanned 12 minutes or 18 minutes - though there was agreement that it was long enough to walk 2000 cubits.

The Hebrew calendar day starts nominally at 6pm. The day starts in the evening. By the Torah rite, whichever passage is read, the procedure is the same.
A: The Passover is sacrificed in the evening, under the setting sun.
B: The Passover is sacrificed between the evenings (daybreak: between 2nd evening of the 13th, 1st evening of the 14th.)
In both cases, the Passover is to be eaten that night with nothing left over til the following day.

IIRC Josephus makes mention of that rite, nominating it as the rite that "we" follow. He also mentions the alternative (temple) procedure, stating that the Jews conduct their sacrifice, beginning at the 9th hour (3pm) and continuing until the eleventh (5pm). In the Temple rite, the sacrifice is eaten in the night of the following day. /IIRC

All that has happened is that Jesus and the disciples celebrated the Passover according to the Torah rite. The lamb is sacrificed on the same day that the temple rite conducts the sacrifice, but 21 hours earlier, and the sacrifice is eaten on the fourteenth in the Torah rite, not the fifteenth.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In the standard calendar, there are two terms of night. The first begins at midnight and continues until dawn. The second begins with nightfall and continues until midnight. In the Hebrew calendar, each day has two evenings. In the Hebrew calendar, - the first evening begins during sunset and continues until nightfall. The second evening of the day starts at 3 pm and continues until after sunset but before nightfall (nominally 6 pm). There was some Rabbinical argument about whether the first evening spanned 12 minutes or 18 minutes - though there was agreement that it was long enough to walk 2000 cubits.

The Hebrew calendar day starts nominally at 6pm. The day starts in the evening. By the Torah rite, whichever passage is read, the procedure is the same.
A: The Passover is sacrificed in the evening, under the setting sun.
B: The Passover is sacrificed between the evenings (daybreak: between 2nd evening of the 13th, 1st evening of the 14th.)
In both cases, the Passover is to be eaten that night with nothing left over til the following day.

Josephus makes mention of that rite, nominating it as the rite that "we" follow. He also mentions the alternative (temple) procedure, stating that the Jews conduct their sacrifice, beginning at the 9th hour (3pm) and continuing until the eleventh (5pm). In the Temple rite, the sacrifice is eaten in the night of the following day.

All that has happened is that Jesus and the disciples celebrated the Passover according to the Torah rite. The lamb is sacrificed on the same day that the temple rite conducts the sacrifice, but 15 hours earlier, and the sacrifice is eaten on the fourteenth in the Torah rite, not the fifteenth.

Without attested sources this appears to be your own opinion. Can you provide those sources? Also the reference in Josephus that relates to the Temple rite where the sacrifice is eaten in the night of the following day would be helpful.

[tabibito]

Without attested sources this appears to be your own opinion. Can you provide those sources? Also the reference in Josephus that relates to the Temple rite where the sacrifice is eaten in the night of the following day would be helpful.

The references in Josephus which show the difference in the rites: (Wars 6:9:3) (Antiquities 3:10:10)

The rest is common knowledge, or readily available.
For the calendar day, https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm is as good as any

[Tassman]

In short, you're happy to declare me wrong, with that declaration being based on no investigation whatever of my claims.

When notable scholars as diverse as Raymond E Brown (Catholic priest) and Prof. Bart Ehrman (agnostic) both practice the discipline of historical-critical methodology and - along with the majority of biblical scholars - date the gospels late, I am inclined to believe them over a layman such as yourself no matter how ingenious your argument.

[tabibito]

When notable scholars as diverse as Raymond E Brown (Catholic priest) and Prof. Bart Ehrman (agnostic) both practice the discipline of historical-critical methodology and - along with the majority of biblical scholars - date the gospels late, I am inclined to believe them over a layman such as yourself no matter how ingenious your argument.

I think it's a fair bet that Ehrman would find your attitude exemplary. Brown, though ... I very much doubt that he would have.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The references in Josephus which show the difference in the rites: (Wars 6:9:3) (Antiquities 3:10:10)

The rest is common knowledge, or readily available.
For the calendar day, https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/526873/jewish/The-Jewish-Day.htm is as good as any

Where in either of those texts does Josephus mention a "separate Temple rite"?

Your position rests on the assumption that the four canonical gospels all agree in all their details regarding the last meal, interrogation etc.

As to 14/15 Nisan. The lamb is slaughtered on 14 Nisan [so Josephus tells us] "from the ninth hour till the eleventh". Other sources state it should be slaughtered in the afternoon of that day with the Seder meal eaten just before sunset on 14 and continuing into the new day of 15 Nisan on which day the seven day festival of Unleavened Bread commences. This thereby conforming with Exodus 12.8 that the meal should be consumed during the night.

The basic issue when trying to determine the date of the crucifixion is that John and the Synoptics disagree. John is emphatic that it was the day of Preparation, i.e. 14 Nisan whereas the Synoptics are quite clear that this last meal was the Seder meal, from which it would follow that the arrest, trial, execution, and burial all took place on Passover, i.e. Nisan 15.

The author of Mark apparently understood it as having occurred on the previous day [14 Nisan] thereby indicating that he was not overly well versed in Jewish law and the events around this important holiday of Passover.

[tabibito]

Where in either of those texts does Josephus mention a "separate Temple rite"?

"We conduct our sacrifice at sunset" and "the Jews conduct their sacrifice between the seventh and ninth hours" is just a subtle indication that maybe the rite is not uniformly conducted.

Your position rests on the assumption that the four canonical gospels all agree in all their details regarding the last meal, interrogation etc.

No. My position relies on the FACT that the EXPLICIT statements of the gospels all declare that Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.

As to 14/15 Nisan. The lamb is slaughtered on 14 Nisan [so Josephus tells us] "from the ninth hour till the eleventh". Other sources state it should be slaughtered in the afternoon of that day with the Seder meal eaten just before sunset on 14 and continuing into the new day of 15 Nisan on which day the seven day festival of Unleavened Bread commences. This thereby conforming with Exodus 12.8 that the meal should be consumed during the night.

Leviticus 23:5 ‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD’S Passover.

What date is Passover? the 15th? According to the temple rite it is the fifteenth. According to Torah it is the fourteenth. There is a difference in conducting the rite.
Observe the Passover at what time? mid afternoon? or twilight? Twilight by the Torah, mid afternoon by the Temple rite.

Numbers 9:2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

What part of the passover is to be observed on the fourteenth? only the sacrifice? In the temple rite is only the sacrifice, in the Torah rite the whole of the passover is observed on the fourteenth.

Deuteronomy 16:6 you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset

The basic issue when trying to determine the date of the crucifixion is that John and the Synoptics disagree. John is emphatic that it was the day of Preparation, i.e. 14 Nisan whereas the Synoptics are quite clear that this last meal was the Seder meal, from which it would follow that the arrest, trial, execution, and burial all took place on Passover, i.e. Nisan 15.

According to the Torah rite, the fifteenth is not Passover.

Leviticus 23:6 ‘Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.7 ‘On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

Nisan 15 is a S.A.B.B.A.T.H. Things like buying linen cloth and conducting crucifixions are prohibited on a Sabbath, whether the weekly Sabbath or a deutero Sabbath.

According to Mark ... 42 When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath,
⁴³ Joseph of Arimathea came, a prominent member of the Council ... 46 Joseph bought a linen cloth, took Him down,
wrapped Him in the linen cloth and laid Him in a tomb.

The author of Mark apparently understood it as having occurred on the previous day [14 Nisan] thereby indicating that he was not overly well versed in Jewish law and the events around this important holiday of Passover.

The day of the sacrifice is set as the fourteenth. The day that the sacrifice is to be eaten varies between rites. In the Torah rite, the fourteenth is Passover. In the Temple rite, the fifteenth is Passover. The sacrifice is eaten on the day designated as Passover by each rite. The gospel writers show that Jesus' (and his disciples') sacrifice was conducted at the start of the day and that the sacrifice was eaten that night - that is, during the first few hours of the fourteenth.

Commentators generally believe that there was only one, uniform rite for the Passover celebration in the first century. The Samaritan Jews conducted the Passover rite (and still do) concurrently with the Jews of Judah only sometimes (different calendars). That the Essenes, by their own calendar, always conducted the Passover on a Wednesday (the fifteenth of Nisan was always a Wednesday by their calendar) meant that their Passover seldom coincided with that of the Jews. The preconception that there was only one, uniform rite misinforms reading of the gospel accounts of the day of crucifixion.

[rogue06]

You appear to have something a teen fan's attitude to Yadin. I am beginning to wonder if you have a poster of him in your bedroom.

Merely pointing out just how far you are willing to go to hand wave off everything that doesn't support your little narratives. That one is just a textbook example.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

"We conduct our sacrifice at sunset" and "the Jews conduct their sacrifice between the seventh and ninth hours" is just a subtle indication that maybe the rite is not uniformly conducted.

There appear to be six stages in the development of this festival.

1. The prehistory of the festivals of Pesach and Maşşōt;
2. The biblical joining of the two festivals;
3. The transformation of the festivals into aspects of a pilgrimage holiday;
4. Later biblical tendencies whereby the festivals are characterised as national celebrations;
5. NT/Christian developments;
6. Early rabbinical changes whereby the holiday was adapted to the loss of the Passover offering.

Looking at those last two and relating them to the first four permits some understanding of their adaptations in later Christian and rabbinic reworkings of those observances.

No. My position relies on the FACT that the EXPLICIT statements of the gospels all declare that Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.

Those gospel accounts are not historically attested facts; and therein lies your problem. You are trying to bring together four disparate and later texts and make them all [somehow] agree.

[tabibito]

There appear to be six stages in the development of this festival.

1. The prehistory of the festivals of Pesach and Maşşōt;
2. The biblical joining of the two festivals;
3. The transformation of the festivals into aspects of a pilgrimage holiday;
4. Later biblical tendencies whereby the festivals are characterised as national celebrations;
5. NT/Christian developments;
6. Early rabbinical changes whereby the holiday was adapted to the loss of the Passover offering.

Looking at those last two and relating them to the first four permits some understanding of their adaptations in later Christian and rabbinic reworkings of those observances.


Those gospel accounts are not historically attested facts; and therein lies your problem. You are trying to bring together four disparate and later texts and make them all [somehow] agree.

So - the Biblical record shows a changing pattern in the observance of Passover, which apparently is attested by your (unnamed) sources, but



I am the one who supposedly has a problem.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So - the Biblical record shows a changing pattern in the observance of Passover, which apparently is attested by your (unnamed) sources, but



I am the one who supposedly has a problem.

You are making assumptions premised entirely on your four canonical gospels. As noted, you are trying to bring together four disparate and later texts and make them all [somehow] agree.

[tabibito]

You are making assumptions premised entirely on your four canonical gospels. As noted, you are trying to bring together four disparate and later texts and make them all [somehow] agree.

They do agree as to the day that Christ was crucified. Nothing outside the Bible changes that simple fact. Nothing prevents anyone from performing the Passover sacrifice in accordance with the Torah rite, which has the sacrifice conducted at the start of the day (just after 6pm). Nothing else makes it possible for any one of the gospels to have the Passover meal eaten on the same day that Jesus was buried. Nor is there any need to compare one gospel with another to determine the basics: though it is nice to have the confirmation and a little support that the comparison provides, it is not at all necessary. It doesn't matter which of the gospels is interpreted to give the 15th as the date that Christ was crucified, that interpretation inevitably has the same gospel saying that Christ was interred the day before he was crucified.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

They do agree as to the day that Christ was crucified. Nothing outside the Bible changes that simple fact.

The only fact is that these literary texts exist.

Nothing prevents anyone from performing the Passover sacrifice in accordance with the Torah rite, which has the sacrifice conducted at the start of the day (just after 6pm). Nothing else makes it possible for any one of the gospels to have the Passover meal eaten on the same day that Jesus was buried. Nor is there any need to compare one gospel with another to determine the basics: though it is nice to have the confirmation and a little support that the comparison provides, it is not at all necessary. It doesn't matter which of the gospels is interpreted to give the 15th as the date that Christ was crucified, that interpretation inevitably has the same gospel saying that Christ was interred the day before he was crucified.

I am tempted to enquire if those who practised this Passover "Temple rite" of which you keep writing considered they were "taking late luncheon at three" and did those participants [as with Uncle Monty in Withnail and I] insist that their lamb required "garlic, rosemary, and salt"?

[tabibito]

The only fact is that these literary texts exist.



I am tempted to enquire if those who practised this Passover "Temple rite" of which you keep writing considered they were "taking late luncheon at three" and did those participants [as with Uncle Monty in Withnail and I] insist that their lamb required "garlic, rosemary, and salt"?

Do you suppose that comment somehow substitutes for an explanation of how Jesus could have been executed on the 15th of Nisan, a Sabbath, when the gospel writers clearly state that he was interred on the Day of Preparation, the 14th?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Do you suppose that comment somehow substitutes for an explanation of how Jesus could have been executed on the 15th of Nisan, a Sabbath, when the gospel writers clearly state that he was interred on the Day of Preparation, the 14th?

I shall leave you to merrily trundle around on your favourite hobbyhorse.

I have made my points and there is an end to it.