How can we know that God is?

[tabibito]

H_A's source is crafting strawmen to combat. Nobody that I've read claims that the persecutions were "constantly persecuted, hounded, or targeted by the Romans" but rather words like "sporadically" are commonly employed.

And her objection that "Very few Christians died" reminds me of how some of the old time racists used to say that lynchings were incredibly rare and very few blacks died from them.

Then to try to handwave them off because they were largely political in scope (because Christians refused to worship the gods of Rome or the Emperor) is straight up bizarre. It's like she really doesn't have a clue or hopes her readers don't.

The delatrix has no qualms about massaging the facts to make them fit her preferred paradigms. We covered most of this nonsense already, and this iteration seems to accord with the usual pattern of deflecting to a different discussion when a case she has made blows up in her face.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Aside from missing the key element, a romance, I have no doubt that you would be able to find such similarities with a dictionary if you just squint the right way.

Some have made various attempts to categorise ancient prose narratives with the conclusion reached by others that the texts are far from homogeneous and their range of topics too wide to be adequately categorised into what we might term "genres".

And happy ending? It ends with Paul's arrest and being sent to Rome (where he was executed).

The text of Acts end quite satisfactorily and makes no mention of any execution, "He lived there two whole years at his own expense^[d] and welcomed all who came to him, ³¹ proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance."

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Should we make a fainting couch and smelling salts available?

I suspect Mountain Man does not require either.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

H_A's source is crafting strawmen to combat. Nobody that I've read claims that the persecutions were "constantly persecuted, hounded, or targeted by the Romans" but rather words like "sporadically" are commonly employed.

And her objection that "Very few Christians died" reminds me of how some of the old time racists used to say that lynchings were incredibly rare and very few blacks died from them.

Then to try to handwave them off because they were largely political in scope (because Christians refused to worship the gods of Rome or the Emperor) is straight up bizarre. It's like she really doesn't have a clue or hopes her readers don't.

You are confusing me with Candida Moss.

[Mountain Man]

Should we make a fainting couch and smelling salts available?

Perhaps breath mints.

[rogue06]

The delatrix has no qualms about massaging the facts to make them fit her preferred paradigms. We covered most of this nonsense already, and this iteration seems to accord with the usual pattern of deflecting to a different discussion when a case she has made blows up in her face.

It's as if that it was sporadic that makes it all right. Pogroms against the Jews were sporadic often with prolonged periods of peaceful co-existence, but I doubt that H_A or her source would seek to minimize them as a result.

[tabibito]

It's as if that it was sporadic that makes it all right. Pogroms against the Jews were sporadic often with prolonged periods of peaceful co-existence, but I doubt that H_A or her source would seek to minimize them as a result.

As I recall (I could be wrong) H_A claimed that pogroms against the Jews (by the churches) were relentless. The little that I have seen suggests that Church against Jew and Rome against Christian persecution followed much the same patterns.

[rogue06]

As I recall (I could be wrong) H_A claimed that pogroms against the Jews (by the churches) were relentless. The little that I have seen suggests that Church against Jew and Rome against Christian persecution followed much the same patterns.

Not sure. Obviously it wasn't relentless or else prosperous Jewish communities could never have popped up in various locations and thrive for many years.

Interestingly, I was recently reading of the persecution and wholesale murder of Christians by Jews in pre-Islamic Arabia. The Jews established a kingdom, Ḥimyar, in present-day Yemen, and the persecution of Christians was under Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar in the 6th cent. According to Islamic scholars, and recently some in the west, up to 20,000 were killed in and around the city of Najrān. Yathʾar was the last king since the massacres prompted the Christian kingdom of Ethiopia to invade and put an end to it.

[tabibito]

Not sure. Obviously it wasn't relentless or else prosperous Jewish communities could never have popped up in various locations and thrive for many years.

Interestingly, I was recently reading of the persecution and wholesale murder of Christians by Jews in pre-Islamic Arabia. The Jews established a kingdom, Ḥimyar, in present-day Yemen, and the persecution of Christians was under Yūsuf Asʾar Yathʾar in the 6th cent. According to Islamic scholars, and recently some in the west, up to 20,000 were killed in and around the city of Najrān. Yathʾar was the last king since the massacres prompted the Christian kingdom of Ethiopia to invade and put an end to it.

Not that I find it surprising, but that is one I had never heard of.

[little_monkey]

God can not violate His moral nature, He can not lie for instance. That however doesn't mean that He had no freedom when it came to creating, what to create, the kind of beings or creatures, whether to create or not, etc... This is not had to understand.

Really, seer?!? I feel bad for you that you let your life and your thinking be dictated by a fictional character. It's too bad that once you're dead, you no longer have a conscient mind to be able to say to yourself: gee, I believe in all that stuff, and it wasn't worth it. You'll be dead. Period. No conscience, no reflection on your life. There will be nothing. In a way, it's good, you won't be regretting anything I keep thinking of those Muslims who flew airplanes into buildings, believing they would be going to paradise, and be met by 72 virgins. Quite a fantasy, but they just can't say: where are my 72 virgins. Nope, there isn't a conscient mind for them to make that objection. Have a good life... in this world, there isn't another one.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

As I recall (I could be wrong) H_A claimed that pogroms against the Jews (by the churches) were relentless.

You are wrong.

[seer]

Really, seer?!? I feel bad for you that you let your life and your thinking be dictated by a fictional character. It's too bad that once you're dead, you no longer have a conscient mind to be able to say to yourself: gee, I believe in all that stuff, and it wasn't worth it. You'll be dead. Period. No conscience, no reflection on your life. There will be nothing. In a way, it's good, you won't be regretting anything I keep thinking of those Muslims who flew airplanes into buildings, believing they would be going to paradise, and be met by 72 virgins. Quite a fantasy, but they just can't say: where are my 72 virgins. Nope, there isn't a conscient mind for them to make that objection. Have a good life... in this world, there isn't another one.

LM, I do have a good life, a life with hope, comfort and joy. And if I'm wrong? What have I lost? Like you said - I won't know the difference.

[Mountain Man]

Really, seer?!? I feel bad for you that you let your life and your thinking be dictated by a fictional character. It's too bad that once you're dead, you no longer have a conscient mind to be able to say to yourself: gee, I believe in all that stuff, and it wasn't worth it. You'll be dead. Period. No conscience, no reflection on your life. There will be nothing. In a way, it's good, you won't be regretting anything I keep thinking of those Muslims who flew airplanes into buildings, believing they would be going to paradise, and be met by 72 virgins. Quite a fantasy, but they just can't say: where are my 72 virgins. Nope, there isn't a conscient mind for them to make that objection. Have a good life... in this world, there isn't another one.

I suppose this sort of reasoning might work on a Christian suffering persecution, the kind of person to whom Paul said, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." It's an interesting verse, because Paul was essentially saying to those who had every reason to reject a false religion that unless they were 100% certain that Christianity is true, then they should just walk away. Even more interesting is that we don't see a lot of people in the early days of Christianity abandoning the faith even when they were being arrested and killed for their beliefs. Your argument is rather less effective on those of us living in the relative comfort of a country like the United States where there are few if any disadvantages to being openly Christian.

Of course the flipside to your argument is the book of Ecclesiastes which laments the futility of life if there is nothing beyond the grave, in which case it literally doesn't matter how you choose to live, because, as you say, "You'll be dead. Period. No conscience, no reflection on your life. There will be nothing [...] you won't be regretting anything." So have a good life, or a bad one. Who cares? Most of us won't be remembered for more than two generations anyway, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. (It's interesting to me how many atheists instinctively reject this line of reasoning despite it being the logical conclusion of their worldview.)

[seer]

Of course the flipside to your argument is the book of Ecclesiastes which laments the futility of life if there is nothing beyond the grave, in which case it literally doesn't matter how you choose to live, because, as you say, "You'll be dead. Period. No conscience, no reflection on your life. There will be nothing [...] you won't be regretting anything." So have a good life, or a bad one. Who cares? Most of us won't be remembered for more than two generations anyway, so eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die. (It's interesting to me how many atheists instinctively reject this line of reasoning despite it being the logical conclusion of their worldview.)

This about sums it up....


Existential nihilism is the philosophical theory that life has no intrinsic meaning or value.^[1]With respect to the universe, existential nihilism suggests that a single human or even the entire human species is insignificant, without purpose and unlikely to change in the totality of existence. According to the theory, each individual is an isolated being born into the universe, barred from knowing 'why'. The inherent meaninglessness of life is largely explored in the philosophical school of existentialism, where one can potentially create their own subjective 'meaning' or 'purpose'. Of all types of nihilism, existential nihilism has received the most literary and philosophical attention.^[

[rogue06]

Some have made various attempts to categorise ancient prose narratives with the conclusion reached by others that the texts are far from homogeneous and their range of topics too wide to be adequately categorised into what we might term "genres".

The text of Acts end quite satisfactorily and makes no mention of any execution, "He lived there two whole years at his own expense^[d] and welcomed all who came to him, ³¹ proclaiming the kingdom of God and teaching about the Lord Jesus Christ with all boldness and without hindrance."

"Some" unnamed persons may posit that, but given we only have five examples still surviving and that they all appear to have a number of similar elements lacking from Acts such features as a romance and a happy ending. The former was essential as it was what drove the adventure and even you would be hard-pressed to squint hard enough to find romance in Acts, particularly as a, if not the, key element.

As for Acts having a happy ending when actually it ended with Paul sent to Rome under house arrest (and where he would be later executed), it seems certain that this wasn't Paul's choice by any means or else he would have headed to Rome earlier having expressed a desire to do so rather taken there in chains (either literally or figuratively).

I can imagine you would describe an account regarding the U.S. 7th Cavalry ending with them confidently riding down to attack the Sioux encampment at Little Big Horn as a happy ending. Well, maybe it was -- for the Sioux.