Originally posted by Sparko
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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How can we know that God is?
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The resurrection is a matter of faith, not a historical fact.
(This is usually when skeptics beg the question and say, "Biblical writings don't count!")Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
It's the old "If we dismiss the evidence for Jesus' resurrection, then there is no evidence for Jesus' resurrection" game.
There is absolutely none, zip, nada, negatory independent evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus nor any of the other miraculous and supernatural events of the life of Jesus nor any of the other ancient religions that have supernatural and miraculous events recorded in their scriptures,Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-12-2022, 10:23 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo old game at all just the complete lack of objective indepamdemt evidence of the Resurrection.
There is absolutely none, zip, nada, negatory independent evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus nor any of the other miraculous and supernatural events of the life of Jesus nor any of the other ancient religions that have supernatural and miraculous events recorded in their scriptures,1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo old game at all just the complete lack of objective indepamdemt evidence of the Resurrection.
There is absolutely none, zip, nada, negatory independent evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus nor any of the other miraculous and supernatural events of the life of Jesus nor any of the other ancient religions that have supernatural and miraculous events recorded in their scriptures,
As for "independent sources", that's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
And with regard to Christianity, her sources are highly suspect.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The dates commonly assigned to the gospels are no more than speculative. None of them are based on hard evidence, and many reflect a strong bias for naturalistic rationalisation."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
Here's how I responded to a similar comment you made in another thread:
As for "independent sources", that's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
No, no one has claimed this. The problem is with supernatural and miraculous claims by ancient religious texts and even today. There is absolutely no way to independently and objectively verify such events. The remain religious beliefs and claims based on ancient texts, and they are not even datable to the time the events are claimed to happen."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
No, no one has claimed this. The problem is with supernatural and miraculous claims by ancient religious texts and even today. There is absolutely no way to independently and objectively verify such events. The remain religious beliefs and claims based on ancient texts, and they are not even datable to the time the events are claimed to happen.
And again, your use of the word "independently" is suspicious. As I noted in another thread:
That's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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How many times have you seen this or something similar to someone claiming that, let's say, there is only one source, the Bible, that says Pilate crucified Jesus?
Even after pointing out that for much if not most of what we know from that period comes from single sources, you point out that the Bible is a collection of separate works written by at least ten different authors, and for good measure some of the other earliest Christian writing such as those from the Apostolic Fathers.
That is dismissed because they're all Christian works, so you point out that it is confirmed by non-Christians of the period, and even quote Tacitus.
And that gets rejected because, like nearly every scrap we have from this time, we only have a copy of a copy, and could have been tampered with.
And so it goes
ETA: Btw, FYI, I have deactivated the function where placing a @ next to my user name notifies me. Was getting far too many along with the actual post responses, especially when a significant number were nothing but attempts to start fights between posters.Last edited by rogue06; 05-12-2022, 05:59 PM.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostOr saying if the Gospels agree on something it was some sort of conspiracy where the authors colluded to line up their stories , hence they can't be trusted, and if there are any "discrepancies" or God help us, disagreements, that means they can't be trusted.
How many times have you seen this or something similar to someone claiming that, let's say, there is only one source, the Bible, that says Pilate crucified Jesus?
Even after pointing out that for much if not most of what we know from that period comes from single sources, you point out that the Bible is a collection of separate works written by at least ten different authors, and for good measure some of the other earliest Christian writing such as those from the Apostolic Fathers.
That is dismissed because they're all Christian works, so you point out that it is confirmed by non-Christians of the period, and even quote Tacitus.
And that gets rejected because, like nearly every scrap we have from this time, we only have a copy of a copy, and could have been tampered with.
And so it goes"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
In fact, the evidence we have for the miracles of Jesus is exactly the kind of evidence we have for most other ancient events: written accounts by either eyewitnesses or those who lived at the time of the eyewitnesses.
And again, your use of the word "independently" is suspicious. As I noted in another thread:
That's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.
1. keep that in mind when someone says that the Jews only believed in an allegorical devil)
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The books of the Bible are not all Christian works.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNew Testament is obviously being referred to nitwit.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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