Originally posted by tabibito
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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How can we know that God is?
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostH_A's attempt to shift to the question how many "rural peasant Galileans" and that there weren't likely a whole lot of Greek-speakers out in the countryside was a real non-starter, given that Peter wasn't a "rural peasant Galilean" and didn't live out in the countryside. It is no different than talking about how there aren't many tech firms with offices in the farmlands of south Georgia and using that to show that there can't be many in the Atlanta metropolitan area.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNot to mention that the simple fact of being selected as one of the apostles would mark Peter as having flexibility and the capacity to learn: without those attributes he would not have been able to zip around doing the work of an apostle, nor even to discard inculcated attitudes about the relative positions of Jew and Gentile.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostB-but but being a mere fisherman obviously means he had to be a simpleton barely able to mutter a few phrases in his native tongue.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Whose opinions are you referencing? The writers of these pseudepigraphical texts? The decision by the early Christian church to ascribe certain names to anonymous texts?
As to your opinion that the authors of these later NT texts were personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth, I suppose that would be a view held by those who consider everything in the bible to free from error and infallible.
And Paul did meet Jesus, after his resurrection. He probably also knew him from before his crucifixion. Jesus was pretty famous in the area. Luke was probably the only author who didn't know Jesus personally, and he says he wrote his books by interviewing people who did.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Try to keep up. The "experts" whom you refer to that claim the books of the bible are pseudepigraphical.
And Paul did meet Jesus, after his resurrection. He probably also knew him from before his crucifixion. Jesus was pretty famous in the area. Luke was probably the only author who didn't know Jesus personally, and he says he wrote his books by interviewing people who did.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd the vast majority of the scholars that you listed think that II Peter likely originated earlier than your proclaimed "around 140 CE"
Nor do you appear to understand how the dating of these texts is arrived at. Furthermore, the conclusion that a text was written around a certain date is an approximate dating and provides a degree of leeway a few decades/years either way. Hence [for example] Matthew's gospel is dated to around 80-100 CE. We cannot give it a precise year of composition.
As to your later comment:
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostMaybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostMaybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostWe aren't talking about the entirety of Galilee but the portion where Peter lived which was along the coast of the Sea of Galilee, where the three major cities were Capernaum (where Peter lived),
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostHippos (one of the cities that constituted the Decapolis), and Tiberias (founded by Herod Antipas in 20 A.D.). The latter two were Hellenistic strongholds. And every city has merchants, traders etc. in them, and in a Hellenistic city. even you would have to agree, many of them would be Greek-speakers.
Again you attempt to shift the discussion from where Peter lived -- in a city -- to the rural portions of the area -- where he didn't live, in order to support your point. It doesn't matter how common Greek speakers were in the rural areas because that wasn't the region Peter lived and worked in. He lived along the Sea of Galilee and was a fisherman. He wouldn't have carried his catch off into the countryside to sell but would have done what fisherman have done for thousands and thousands of years. He pulled his boat up to one of the cities on the coast and sold his catch to a merchant.
smiley blah_blah.gif
Again, you seek to confuse the issue. Peter lived in an area where there were cities, not out in the countryside. And the two largest cities were Hellenized (one was part of the freaking Decapolis) where you would find people speaking Greek aplenty.
More deliberate irrelevance.
Peter lived in a city not out in the countryside. His two biggest markets were major Hellenistic cities -- Hippo and Tiberias.
Who cares? Peter wasn't a rural peasant Galilean. He lived in Capernaum. A city.
The two biggest markets along the Sea of Galilee were Hellenistic cities -- Hippo (a part of the Decapolis) and Tiberias.
It is also totally irrelevant given that Peter was not a "rural peasant " but a city dweller.
Those Greek-speakers in Galilee just happened to be concentrated in the area where Peter lived. They would have represented the biggest market for anyone fishing the Sea of Galilee.
Why would an Aramaic speaking peasant Galilean Jewish visionary/teacher go to the cities of the Decapolis? What purpose would it have served? Furthermore, why, given that Jesus had apparently just visited the "region of the Gadarenes" [Mark 5 and Matthew 8] did he give the advice to his disciples in Matthew 10? That injunction does rather contradict his own previous actions.
Neither is there a shred of internal evidence [from the Christian texts] nor any extraneous contemporary historical evidence to support both your own and @tabibito's delightful notions that this individual of Cephas/Peter was a businessman or that he traded his fish into larger urban areas. One might suggest that the family interest in fishing was far more likely to have been purely subsistence and the catch sold locally. Likewise the suggestion that Jesus was some of religious entrepreneur selecting the candidates with the most aptitude to join him in his work is completely risible, as is the piece of whimsy that an artisanal rural peasant fisherman was fluent in sophisticated Greek and had studied the art of rhetoric to a secondary level..
Therefore, after reading all your various contentions one is left to ask "Is it likely?"
To which the short answer is "No".
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
We have no idea if Paul came from Tarsus nor if he studied with Gamaliel. Paul never tells us about either.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Unlikely I think. He was in Jerusalem when Stephen was stoned.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYes we do. Acts 9:11 and Acts 22:3. Just because Paul himself doesn't mention it doesn't mean it isn't mentioned.
One can only wonder why Paul never mentions that he had studied with Gamaliel, even when he is most concerned to stress his qualifications as a Pharisee; nor why, if he had indeed studied with such a prominent teacher in Jerusalem, Paul never uses the Hebrew texts but always quotes from the LXX..
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAccording to the illustrious historian, H_A, we don't know that since Paul never brings it up in his letters.
Of course, Capernaum wasn't a city, it was for the time a reasonably sized township of roughly 1500 residents: suddenly it gets no more status than a rural hamlet. Then of course, there is every reason to believe that a fisherman well enough off to own a boat would conduct trade with cities, given that a reasonable percentage of his catch would not find a market in a Jewish town. Even if he did not actually conduct business with the Decapolis cities, Magdala was quite cosmopolitan, and did have a sizable proportion of Greek residents - sort of a mirror image of a typical Decapolis city - it would provide more than enough contact with Greek speakers.
Then we have the claims that certain books of the New Testament are fraudulent - such as Acts, in which the author states that he was a companion of Paul, being assigned a date that would show the author was telling porkies. If nothing else in Biblical scholarship is based on wild speculation backed by confirmation bias, assigning late dates to authorship would be the exception.Last edited by tabibito; 05-11-2022, 07:28 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostCapernaum was not a city it was a small town/large village. Nor do we have any idea where this individual [assuming he existed] actually lived.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAs for the rest of your post, it is nothing but a confection premised on your own wild speculations.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWhy would an Aramaic speaking peasant Galilean Jewish visionary/teacher go to the cities of the Decapolis? What purpose would it have served?
But be that as it may, Jesus taught and healed there (Mark 7:31-37) and the account of casting out of the demons into a herd of swine (Matthew 8:30-33; Mark 5:1-17; Luke 8:26-39) took place outside of Gadara, one of the cities of the Decapolis so your incredulousness is wasted.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostFurthermore, why, given that Jesus had apparently just visited the "region of the Gadarenes" [Mark 5 and Matthew 8] did he give the advice to his disciples in Matthew 10? That injunction does rather contradict his own previous actions.
Btw, while Hellenized cities that does not mean that there weren't any Jews living there.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNeither is there a shred of internal evidence [from the Christian texts] nor any extraneous contemporary historical evidence to support both your own and @tabibito's delightful notions that this individual of Cephas/Peter was a businessman or that he traded his fish into larger urban areas.
One might suggest that the family interest in fishing was far more likely to have been purely subsistence and the catch sold locally.
That he was a businessman can be seen by his decision to move from Bethsaida (where he was born; John 1:44) to Capernaum, which while only a few miles apart, were in different jurisdictions.
Peter and his brother Andrew[1] needed their fish air dried or salted in order to sell it outside of the immediate area, and FWICT, the principal (if not the only) place to do that on the Sea of Galilee was at Magdala, a town in the same territory as Capernaum and only about 3 miles north of Tiberias.
Now, any fishermen living in Bethsaida needed to bring their catch across a border and to pay a tax -- hence the purpose of the customs house at Capernaum (Mark 2:14). By becoming residents of Capernaum, Peter and Andrew avoided this tax. Their move was a business decision.
If they were subsistence fisherman they wouldn't have bothered to uproot themselves and move. There would be no need and such a move would be disruptive and require money they didn't have.
Btw, they owned a house large enough to accommodate Peter, his wife and children, Andrew (I don't know if he was married), and Peter's mother-in-law.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostLikewise the suggestion that Jesus was some of religious entrepreneur selecting the candidates with the most aptitude to join him in his work is completely risible
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Postas is the piece of whimsy that an artisanal rural peasant fisherman was fluent in sophisticated Greek and had studied the art of rhetoric to a secondary level..
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostTherefore, after reading all your various contentions one is left to ask "Is it likely?"
To which the short answer is "No".
1. please note that this is a Greek name with no Hebrew equivalent strongly suggesting that Peter's parents were at least in part Hellenized.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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