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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Or even Magdala, which also had a tidy Hellenistic population, come to that.
    H_A's attempt to shift to the question how many "rural peasant Galileans" and that there weren't likely a whole lot of Greek-speakers out in the countryside was a real non-starter, given that Peter wasn't a "rural peasant Galilean" and didn't live out in the countryside. It is no different than talking about how there aren't many tech firms with offices in the farmlands of south Georgia and using that to show that there can't be many in the Atlanta metropolitan area.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      H_A's attempt to shift to the question how many "rural peasant Galileans" and that there weren't likely a whole lot of Greek-speakers out in the countryside was a real non-starter, given that Peter wasn't a "rural peasant Galilean" and didn't live out in the countryside. It is no different than talking about how there aren't many tech firms with offices in the farmlands of south Georgia and using that to show that there can't be many in the Atlanta metropolitan area.
      Not to mention that the simple fact of being selected as one of the apostles would mark Peter as having flexibility and the capacity to learn: without those attributes he would not have been able to zip around doing the work of an apostle, nor even to discard inculcated attitudes about the relative positions of Jew and Gentile.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        Not to mention that the simple fact of being selected as one of the apostles would mark Peter as having flexibility and the capacity to learn: without those attributes he would not have been able to zip around doing the work of an apostle, nor even to discard inculcated attitudes about the relative positions of Jew and Gentile.
        B-but but being a mere fisherman obviously means he had to be a simpleton barely able to mutter a few phrases in his native tongue.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          B-but but being a mere fisherman obviously means he had to be a simpleton barely able to mutter a few phrases in his native tongue.
          Yup, and James Croll is also a mythical figure.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Whose opinions are you referencing? The writers of these pseudepigraphical texts? The decision by the early Christian church to ascribe certain names to anonymous texts?

            As to your opinion that the authors of these later NT texts were personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth, I suppose that would be a view held by those who consider everything in the bible to free from error and infallible.
            Try to keep up. The "experts" whom you refer to that claim the books of the bible are pseudepigraphical.

            And Paul did meet Jesus, after his resurrection. He probably also knew him from before his crucifixion. Jesus was pretty famous in the area. Luke was probably the only author who didn't know Jesus personally, and he says he wrote his books by interviewing people who did.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              Try to keep up. The "experts" whom you refer to that claim the books of the bible are pseudepigraphical.

              And Paul did meet Jesus, after his resurrection. He probably also knew him from before his crucifixion. Jesus was pretty famous in the area. Luke was probably the only author who didn't know Jesus personally, and he says he wrote his books by interviewing people who did.
              Maybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                And the vast majority of the scholars that you listed think that II Peter likely originated earlier than your proclaimed "around 140 CE"
                As Challon notes: The dates suggested by Bigg, Wohlenberg, Mounce, Moo, and Harvey and Towner are based on the view that Peter is the actual author of 2 Peter.

                Nor do you appear to understand how the dating of these texts is arrived at. Furthermore, the conclusion that a text was written around a certain date is an approximate dating and provides a degree of leeway a few decades/years either way. Hence [for example] Matthew's gospel is dated to around 80-100 CE. We cannot give it a precise year of composition.

                As to your later comment:

                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Maybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry.
                We have no idea if Paul came from Tarsus nor if he studied with Gamaliel. Paul never tells us about either.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Maybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry.
                  Unlikely I think. He was in Jerusalem when Stephen was stoned.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    We aren't talking about the entirety of Galilee but the portion where Peter lived which was along the coast of the Sea of Galilee, where the three major cities were Capernaum (where Peter lived),
                    Capernaum was not a city it was a small town/large village. Nor do we have any idea where this individual [assuming he existed] actually lived.

                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Hippos (one of the cities that constituted the Decapolis), and Tiberias (founded by Herod Antipas in 20 A.D.). The latter two were Hellenistic strongholds. And every city has merchants, traders etc. in them, and in a Hellenistic city. even you would have to agree, many of them would be Greek-speakers.


                    Again you attempt to shift the discussion from where Peter lived -- in a city -- to the rural portions of the area -- where he didn't live, in order to support your point. It doesn't matter how common Greek speakers were in the rural areas because that wasn't the region Peter lived and worked in. He lived along the Sea of Galilee and was a fisherman. He wouldn't have carried his catch off into the countryside to sell but would have done what fisherman have done for thousands and thousands of years. He pulled his boat up to one of the cities on the coast and sold his catch to a merchant.



                    smiley blah_blah.gif

                    Again, you seek to confuse the issue. Peter lived in an area where there were cities, not out in the countryside. And the two largest cities were Hellenized (one was part of the freaking Decapolis) where you would find people speaking Greek aplenty.


                    More deliberate irrelevance.

                    Peter lived in a city not out in the countryside. His two biggest markets were major Hellenistic cities -- Hippo and Tiberias.


                    Who cares? Peter wasn't a rural peasant Galilean. He lived in Capernaum. A city.


                    The two biggest markets along the Sea of Galilee were Hellenistic cities -- Hippo (a part of the Decapolis) and Tiberias.


                    It is also totally irrelevant given that Peter was not a "rural peasant " but a city dweller.


                    Those Greek-speakers in Galilee just happened to be concentrated in the area where Peter lived. They would have represented the biggest market for anyone fishing the Sea of Galilee.
                    As for the rest of your post, it is nothing but a confection premised on your own wild speculations.

                    Why would an Aramaic speaking peasant Galilean Jewish visionary/teacher go to the cities of the Decapolis? What purpose would it have served? Furthermore, why, given that Jesus had apparently just visited the "region of the Gadarenes" [Mark 5 and Matthew 8] did he give the advice to his disciples in Matthew 10? That injunction does rather contradict his own previous actions.

                    Neither is there a shred of internal evidence [from the Christian texts] nor any extraneous contemporary historical evidence to support both your own and @tabibito's delightful notions that this individual of Cephas/Peter was a businessman or that he traded his fish into larger urban areas. One might suggest that the family interest in fishing was far more likely to have been purely subsistence and the catch sold locally. Likewise the suggestion that Jesus was some of religious entrepreneur selecting the candidates with the most aptitude to join him in his work is completely risible, as is the piece of whimsy that an artisanal rural peasant fisherman was fluent in sophisticated Greek and had studied the art of rhetoric to a secondary level..

                    Therefore, after reading all your various contentions one is left to ask "Is it likely?"

                    To which the short answer is "No".

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post




                      We have no idea if Paul came from Tarsus nor if he studied with Gamaliel. Paul never tells us about either.
                      Yes we do. Acts 9:11 and Acts 22:3. Just because Paul himself doesn't mention it doesn't mean it isn't mentioned.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        Unlikely I think. He was in Jerusalem when Stephen was stoned.
                        According to the illustrious historian, H_A, we don't know that since Paul never brings it up in his letters.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Yes we do. Acts 9:11 and Acts 22:3. Just because Paul himself doesn't mention it doesn't mean it isn't mentioned.
                          The work Acts is much later - and several decades [at the very least] after Paul disappears from history - and the words are put into his mouth by the writer of that text.

                          One can only wonder why Paul never mentions that he had studied with Gamaliel, even when he is most concerned to stress his qualifications as a Pharisee; nor why, if he had indeed studied with such a prominent teacher in Jerusalem, Paul never uses the Hebrew texts but always quotes from the LXX..


                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            According to the illustrious historian, H_A, we don't know that since Paul never brings it up in his letters.
                            Given that nothing stands in contradiction, I'm willing to allow that the Biblical record is accurate within acceptable limits.

                            Of course, Capernaum wasn't a city, it was for the time a reasonably sized township of roughly 1500 residents: suddenly it gets no more status than a rural hamlet. Then of course, there is every reason to believe that a fisherman well enough off to own a boat would conduct trade with cities, given that a reasonable percentage of his catch would not find a market in a Jewish town. Even if he did not actually conduct business with the Decapolis cities, Magdala was quite cosmopolitan, and did have a sizable proportion of Greek residents - sort of a mirror image of a typical Decapolis city - it would provide more than enough contact with Greek speakers.

                            Then we have the claims that certain books of the New Testament are fraudulent - such as Acts, in which the author states that he was a companion of Paul, being assigned a date that would show the author was telling porkies. If nothing else in Biblical scholarship is based on wild speculation backed by confirmation bias, assigning late dates to authorship would be the exception.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 05-11-2022, 07:28 AM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Maybe not. Paul was from Tarsus which is a city in Turkey. And while he was educated by Gamaliel in Jerusalem that was when he would have been younger and prior to Jesus' ministry.
                              Maybe.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Capernaum was not a city it was a small town/large village. Nor do we have any idea where this individual [assuming he existed] actually lived.
                                A large town or small city. According to J. Reed's Archaeology and the Galilean Jesus: A Reexamination of the Evidence the population was likely 1500.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                As for the rest of your post, it is nothing but a confection premised on your own wild speculations.
                                Do tell. Which parts were "wild speculations"?

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Why would an Aramaic speaking peasant Galilean Jewish visionary/teacher go to the cities of the Decapolis? What purpose would it have served?
                                What in the world are you blathering about? We aren't talking about "Galilean Jewish visionary/teacher" but a fisherman selling his catch in a nearby city.

                                But be that as it may, Jesus taught and healed there (Mark 7:31-37) and the account of casting out of the demons into a herd of swine (Matthew 8:30-33; Mark 5:1-17; Luke 8:26-39) took place outside of Gadara, one of the cities of the Decapolis so your incredulousness is wasted.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Furthermore, why, given that Jesus had apparently just visited the "region of the Gadarenes" [Mark 5 and Matthew 8] did he give the advice to his disciples in Matthew 10? That injunction does rather contradict his own previous actions.
                                You mock the concept of visiting the Decapolis only to immediately turn around and cite a visit to one of them. Consistency has never been your strong point, has it?

                                Btw, while Hellenized cities that does not mean that there weren't any Jews living there.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Neither is there a shred of internal evidence [from the Christian texts] nor any extraneous contemporary historical evidence to support both your own and @tabibito's delightful notions that this individual of Cephas/Peter was a businessman or that he traded his fish into larger urban areas.

                                One might suggest that the family interest in fishing was far more likely to have been purely subsistence and the catch sold locally.
                                He was a fisherman. He would sell his catch. That makes him a businessman. People tend to sell their wares where there is the largest demand (easier to sell, likely make more doing so). Basic economics that hasn't changed since people started trading.

                                That he was a businessman can be seen by his decision to move from Bethsaida (where he was born; John 1:44) to Capernaum, which while only a few miles apart, were in different jurisdictions.

                                Peter and his brother Andrew[1] needed their fish air dried or salted in order to sell it outside of the immediate area, and FWICT, the principal (if not the only) place to do that on the Sea of Galilee was at Magdala, a town in the same territory as Capernaum and only about 3 miles north of Tiberias.

                                Now, any fishermen living in Bethsaida needed to bring their catch across a border and to pay a tax -- hence the purpose of the customs house at Capernaum (Mark 2:14). By becoming residents of Capernaum, Peter and Andrew avoided this tax. Their move was a business decision.

                                If they were subsistence fisherman they wouldn't have bothered to uproot themselves and move. There would be no need and such a move would be disruptive and require money they didn't have.

                                Btw, they owned a house large enough to accommodate Peter, his wife and children, Andrew (I don't know if he was married), and Peter's mother-in-law.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Likewise the suggestion that Jesus was some of religious entrepreneur selecting the candidates with the most aptitude to join him in his work is completely risible
                                To say that Jesus was a good judge of people would be an understatement in the extreme.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                as is the piece of whimsy that an artisanal rural peasant fisherman was fluent in sophisticated Greek and had studied the art of rhetoric to a secondary level..
                                Still incapable of comprehending the role of an amanuensis -- something that I Peter 5:4 made clear that he employed (we even have their name).

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Therefore, after reading all your various contentions one is left to ask "Is it likely?"

                                To which the short answer is "No".
                                Only if you are using a gross mischaracterization full of ignorance and misunderstanding.




                                1. please note that this is a Greek name with no Hebrew equivalent strongly suggesting that Peter's parents were at least in part Hellenized.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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