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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    The preponderance of quotations, allusions, and statements make it clear that the value of martyrdom was an imitatio Christi. The idea is perhaps most closely associated with Polycarp where his imitatio is explicitly stated from the outset and his conduct compared to that of the Christ.

    We have written to you, brethren, as to what relates to the martyrs, and especially to the blessed Polycarp, who put an end to the persecution, having, as it were, set a seal upon it by his martyrdom. For almost all the events that happened previously [to this one], took place that the Lord might show us from above a martyrdom becoming the Gospel. For he waited to be delivered up, even as the Lord had done, that we also might become his followers [....]


    An indication that Polycarp's death is an imitatio Christi and in accordance with the gospels is the approach to death. The gospel-worthy martyr does not offer himself for martyrdom but willingly [eagerly] embraces it once sentence is passed.
    Again, a faith thriving in the face of persecution is not the same as saying that persecution is necessary for it to thrive, and you have not shown anywhere that Christians have ever believed that persecuation was "necessary as part of Christian existence".

    I'm done watching you run around in circles and consider this matter settled.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      Again, a faith thriving in the face of persecution is not the same as saying that persecution is necessary for it to thrive, and you have not shown anywhere that Christians have ever believed that persecuation was "necessary as part of Christian existence".

      I'm done watching you run around in circles and consider this matter settled.
      Yet you wrote this:

      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      Sure, Christianity has historically thrived in the face of persecution


      I recommend you do a little more reading on the early martyrs of your faith.
      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-20-2022, 08:27 AM.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        And what is there to support this notion? For Christianity, we have a solid historical and theological foundation supporting our beliefs. What is there, beyond wishful thinking, to support your idea that everybody will spend eternity in a heavenly paradise regardless of how they lived on earth?
        Eternity with some I have engaged with here and elsewhere? That would be my idea of hell.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          Yet you wrote this:

          "Sure, Christianity has historically thrived in the face of persecution"

          I recommend you do a little more reading on the early martyrs of your faith.
          False. What I actually wrote:

          Sure, Christianity has historically thrived in the face of persecution, in accordance with scripture, but again, I don't see anywhere at any time that Christians believed that persecution was "necessary as part of Christian existence".

          I also wrote:

          "Christianity thrives in the face of persecution" is a lot different than saying "Persecution is necessary for Christianity to thrive", and I don't see anywhere that you have shown Christians to say or believe the latter.

          Don't make the mistake of thinking that my saying a particular discussion is at an end means I won't call out for any subsequent intellectual dishonesty on your part.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            False. What I actually wrote:

            Sure, Christianity has historically thrived in the face of persecution, in accordance with scripture, but again, I don't see anywhere at any time that Christians believed that persecution was "necessary as part of Christian existence".
            It was part of being Christian from the earliest times - at least according to the traditions. People died [so we are told] for their belief.

            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            I also wrote:

            "Christianity thrives in the face of persecution" is a lot different than saying "Persecution is necessary for Christianity to thrive", and I don't see anywhere that you have shown Christians to say or believe the latter.

            Don't make the mistake of thinking that my saying a particular discussion is at an end means I won't call out for any subsequent intellectual dishonesty on your part.
            And I gave you some historical background along with comments from two Church Fathers and the martyrdom of an Apostolic Father and another Christian martyr - Germanicus.

            However, perhaps the Latin term imitatio Christi alarmed you - with its suggestion of Popery!
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Let's see now ...

              Jenky.jpg
              It is hard to tell whether Moss is implying that Jenky is claiming that persecution of the church has been unrelenting through the millennia, but if so she has mischaracterised his intent.
              The very fact that persecution quite clearly has not been in evidence through a number of centuries should put paid to the claim that persecution was relentless.
              I must say though, that I am quite taken by her redefinition of persecution to make her case - it is quite skilfully done. But no - "continually" is not part of the definition.

              Moss.jpg
              And then, she admits that there was persecution (consistency isn't her strong suit, it seems) after all, though only for a handful of years. One span of persecution lasted for about 12 years, and it was not the only term of persecution by Rome during the first few centuries. But at least she doesn't seem to deny the persecution of the early church by the Jewish authorities, though the small section that I have read doesn't really consider that part of church history.
              Last edited by tabibito; 05-20-2022, 09:09 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Let's see now ...

                I must say though, that I am quite taken by her redefinition of persecution to make her case - it is quite skilfully done. But no - "continually" is not part of the definition.
                Moss has never stated there was no persecution of Christians in Rome so do try and be less duplicitous. She merely noted that the traditional beliefs about mass and continuous persecutions had no historical basis.

                I am beginning to wonder if the habits of others are rubbing off on to you.
                Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 05-20-2022, 09:28 AM.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Moss has never stated there was no persecution of Christians in Rome so do try and be less duplicitous. She merely noted that the traditional beliefs about mass and continuous persecutions had no historical basis.
                  I did note that she admitted that there had been persecution. It was the "handful of years" that I objected to. Moss seems to be trying to downplay (not deny) the admittedly sporadic and short lived persecutions that did take place: in part, by redefining persecution.

                  There is no "standard idea that the church has always been persecuted," and Jenky's comments (as cited at least) do not make a call to "the myth of Persecution"

                  I am beginning to wonder if the habits of others are rubbing off on to you.
                  No, your habits are not rubbing off on me.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 05-20-2022, 09:44 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    It was part of being Christian from the earliest times - at least according to the traditions. People died [so we are told] for their belief.

                    And I gave you some historical background along with comments from two Church Fathers and the martyrdom of an Apostolic Father and another Christian martyr - Germanicus.

                    However, perhaps the Latin term imitatio Christi alarmed you - with its suggestion of Popery!
                    "A part of being Christian" does not translate to "a necessary part of being Christian". You have utterly failed to support your contention that Christians at any time in history have ever believed the latter. It seems obvious to me that a Christian who lives his entire life in a country like the United States and has never faced a single day of persecution (suffering the inane insults of fools like you doesn't really quality as "persecution") will not have missed any essential part of the Christian experience.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post

                      I have no idea what that means unless you are speaking of one of the most idiotic songs of recent history.
                      I was asking you to imagine the scenario that followed. Why do I have to explain every .... single .... thing.

                      Well universalism is an appealing idea, I have Christian friends who are universalists, but I'm not going to count on it. I will trust in Christ and His atoning sacrifice on my part. Nothing more and nothing less.
                      Go for it and I wish you well. I'm just playing around with some ideas here, and having some fun in the process.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        And what is there to support this notion? For Christianity, we have a solid historical and theological foundation supporting our beliefs. What is there, beyond wishful thinking, to support your idea that everybody will spend eternity in a heavenly paradise regardless of how they lived on earth?
                        Nothing whatsoever. I'm just playing around with ideas. Despite your certainty, and I respect your right to hold it, from my viewpoint that pretty much applies to all notions of an afterlife.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Alien View Post

                          I was asking you to imagine the scenario that followed. Why do I have to explain every .... single .... thing.
                          Remember who you are talking to!


                          Go for it and I wish you well. I'm just playing around with some ideas here, and having some fun in the process.

                          OK...

                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Let's see now ...

                            Jenky.jpg
                            It is hard to tell whether Moss is implying that Jenky is claiming that persecution of the church has been unrelenting through the millennia, but if so she has mischaracterised his intent.
                            The very fact that persecution quite clearly has not been in evidence through a number of centuries should put paid to the claim that persecution was relentless.
                            I must say though, that I am quite taken by her redefinition of persecution to make her case - it is quite skilfully done. But no - "continually" is not part of the definition.

                            Moss.jpg
                            And then, she admits that there was persecution (consistency isn't her strong suit, it seems) after all, though only for a handful of years. One span of persecution lasted for about 12 years, and it was not the only term of persecution by Rome during the first few centuries. But at least she doesn't seem to deny the persecution of the early church by the Jewish authorities, though the small section that I have read doesn't really consider that part of church history.
                            Indeed let us see now.

                            Here are the two complete sections from Moss to put your small quotes into their contexts:


                            pages 9-10

                            On April 14, 2012, Daniel R Jenky, the bishop of Peoria, Illinois delivered one of the most controversial sermons in recent American memory. During his sermon at the Mass for the "Call to Catholic Men of Faith" rally, he challenged his audience to practice "heroic Catholicism", heroic Catholicism, in this case, meant standing - and voting- against the Obama administration and opposing the U.S. Department of health and human Services mandate. There's nothing surprising about a Catholic bishop opposing abortion and contraception, but what due heated responses and fervent debate was the implicit comparison that Jenky made between President Obama, Adolf Hitler, and Joseph Stalin. Jenky stated, "Barack Obama - his radical, pro-abortion and extreme secularist agenda - now seems intent on following a similar path" as other governments who "have tried to force Christians to huddle and hide only within the confines of their churches". Jenky singled out the Nazi and Stalinist regimes as antecedents to Obama's health-care reforms.

                            Bishop Jenky's homily immediately highlighted the divisions among the already polarized Catholic laity. His comments about Hitler and Stalin in particular were met with public declarations of support, horror, and outrage. They serve as code words for genocide and, whether Bishop Jenky intended this or not, they implied that Obama's policies might set us on the road to another holocaust. Although some defended Jenky's right to free speech and the content of his sermon, others called the comparison morally reprehensible and rhetorically suspect.

                            Yet Jenky's repeated exhortations to Catholics to "fight" drew upon a much lengthier history of the church. This was not just about Obama, Stalin, and Hitler; this was about the history of the church in the world.



                            page 15

                            The issue is complicated with respect to the ancient world, because both religion and politics were not neatly divided and because religious freedom was not an inalienable human right. But there is something different about prosecuted under a law -however unjust - that is not designed to target or rout out any particular group. It may be unfortunate, it may be unfair but it is not persecution and is it is very far from the myth of how Christians were treated by the Romans. This is not an inconsequential detail. The myth of persecution assumes that the other demonically inspired party is deliberately trying to attack the church. But, as we will see, although prejudice against Christians was fairly widespread, the prosecution of Christians was rare, and the persecution of Christians was limited to no more than a handful of years.

                            The evidence for Christian martyrdom is of three basic types: evidence for persecution from Roman sources and archaeology, stories about martyrs, and descriptions of Christian martyrdom in the writings of church historians. On the Roman side there is very little historical or archaeological evidence for the widespread persecution of Christians. Where we do have evidence for persecution, in the middle of the third century, it is not clear that the Romans are specifically targeting Christians at all. Even the so-called Decian persecution in 250 CE was about political uniformity, not religious persecution. Nothing in our evidence for Decius's legislation mentions targeting Christians. Before Decius, the prosecution of Christians was occasional and prompted by local officials, petty jealousies, and regional concerns. That Christians saw themselves as persecuted and interpreted prosecution this way is understandable, but it does not mean that the Romans were persecuting them. This interpretation does not match up with the political and social realities. Christians were ridiculed and viewed with contempt and they were sometimes even executed, but they were not the subjects of continual persecution.


                            As you can see your two extracts are separated by some five pages. You did not make that clear.

                            .

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Eternity with some I have engaged with here and elsewhere? That would be my idea of hell.

                              Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.

                              Mark Twain








                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                "A part of being Christian" does not translate to "a necessary part of being Christian". You have utterly failed to support your contention that Christians at any time in history have ever believed the latter. It seems obvious to me that a Christian who lives his entire life in a country like the United States and has never faced a single day of persecution (suffering the inane insults of fools like you doesn't really quality as "persecution") will not have missed any essential part of the Christian experience.
                                Well of course I know history is not your strong point.

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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