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How can we know that God is?

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  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    You appear to have responded to the wrong post.
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    IIRC, when H_A first showed up here she once extended her doubt to the existence of Paul, but later dropped that.


    So, once again, where did I write that I doubted the existence of Paul? Or is all this another example of your faulty memory?

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    For one, the references aren't in works of fiction, and are by, in some cases, real people who actually knew him (such as Paul and I Clement, who was consecrated by him).
    Concerning Clement that is nothing more than a tradition. As for Paul knowing Peter, again we are back to our earliest source and Paul is the first of those. In short [outside the writings of Paul and those later gospel accounts] we have no attested, contemporary, and extraneous historical evidence for Peter or any of the other disciples. I certainly suspect that the real man behind the various Jesus' of the gospels had followers but their names are lost to us.

    Concerning the names of the disciples I reminded of the scene in The Life of Brian where Brian falls on to the boring prophet and knocks him into a large urn. To avoid attracting the attention of the Romans he starts preaching. After two bad starts with the birds and the flowers, he begins his story about the man with two servants. When asked for their names by the group listening to him, he initially dismisses their question but when they challenge him tells them the servants were called Simon and Adrian.

    I would also add that certain of these Christian texts contain elements of narrative fiction. You forget that people then, as now, like a good story [which is so amusingly demonstrated in that scene]. Hence all those [now deemed Apocryphal] Christian texts.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      Of course the resurrection of Jesus is an historical fact, recorded as such by the gospel writers, and accepted as such by the early Church, including the hundreds of witnesses who saw the risen Jesus with their own eyes (1 Corinthians 15:6). When Peter preached to the crowd of thousands on the day of Pentacost as recorded in Acts 2, he appealed to the evidence that the crowd themselves had witnessed ("...Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know...").

      To dismiss the Resurrection as nothing but a matter of "faith"
      That is what Paul preached.

      The gospel accounts are much later.

      My question to you still stands why do you need to try and prove this was a historical event? Is your faith not sufficient? It seems to have been enough for Paul's congregations.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        That is what Paul preached.

        The gospel accounts are much later.

        My question to you still stands why do you need to try and prove this was a historical event? Is your faith not sufficient? It seems to have been enough for Paul's congregations.
        Paul's congregations were not encouraged by Paul to accept overly much on (blind) faith at all. For him, faith needed to be based on evidence. Of course, the testimony of witnesses was considered highly valuable, but it wasn't considered conclusive.
        Last edited by tabibito; 05-16-2022, 08:28 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          That is what Paul preached.

          The gospel accounts are much later.

          My question to you still stands why do you need to try and prove this was a historical event? Is your faith not sufficient? It seems to have been enough for Paul's congregations.
          I think there's something wrong with your browser, because it keeps cutting out large portions of people's posts when you reply. Here's the paragraph that was inadvertently eliminated from your previous response:

          To dismiss the Resurrection as nothing but a matter of "faith" (by which you disparagingly mean belief without evidence) is nothing but pigheaded willful ignorance on your part. Furthermore, your insistence that you would accept a non-Christian source testifying to the Resurrection is disingenious because 1) You have yet to present any reason why we should expect such from a non-Chrisitian (surely anyone who was convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead would have converted to Christianity on the spot); and 2) You have already made your bigoted opinion of first century people clear and regard them as too ignorant and superstitious to be able to reliably attest to something like a man coming back to life.

          Perhaps the site owners would be willing to help you troubleshoot to figure out why posts are not being properly quoted in full when you respond.

          As for your question above, you have no idea what faith even is, otherwise you would not be asking such stupid questions. "Faith", as the word is used in the Bible, means a confident assurance based on evidence (Hebrews 11:1). For instance, a husband is assured that his wife will not cheat on him in the future based on the evidence that she has never cheated on him in the past. Tell me, would you scoff at a husband who expressed such faith in his wife's fidelity?

          In short, your belief that Christian faith is grounded on nothing but wishful thinking is just more of your inexcusable ignorance on display.

          See: What is Faith? by JP Holding
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


            In short, your belief that Christian faith is grounded on nothing but wishful thinking is just more of your inexcusable ignorance on display.
            Does faith need evidence?

            Paul's proselytes did not appear to need it. Faith was enough for them, but not apparently for you.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Does faith need evidence?

              Paul's proselytes did not appear to need it. Faith was enough for them, but not apparently for you.
              If you're not going to bother responding to my entire post then don't bother responding at all.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Does faith need evidence?

                Paul's proselytes did not appear to need it. Faith was enough for them, but not apparently for you.
                The Bereans, who Paul ministered to, were praised because they examined the evidence (Acts 17:11).

                Christianity is an evidence-based faith. Not blind faith.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  If you're not going to bother responding to my entire post then don't bother responding at all.
                  I am not interested in addressing your pejorative remarks. Nor am I overly concerned about what JP Holding might think about faith.

                  I asked you a question. And it is quite obvious that you do not wish to answer it.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    The Bereans, who Paul ministered to, were praised because they examined the evidence (Acts 17:11).
                    Are you suggesting they too saw the resurrected Jesus?


                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Christianity is an evidence-based faith. Not blind faith.
                    And there was I thinking that " it is God’s saving power for everyone who believes"

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      I am not interested in addressing your pejorative remarks. Nor am I overly concerned about what JP Holding might think about faith.

                      I asked you a question. And it is quite obvious that you do not wish to answer it.
                      And I answered:

                      As for your question above, you have no idea what faith even is, otherwise you would not be asking such stupid questions. "Faith", as the word is used in the Bible, means a confident assurance based on evidence (Hebrews 11:1). For instance, a husband is assured that his wife will not cheat on him in the future based on the evidence that she has never cheated on him in the past. Tell me, would you scoff at a husband who expressed such faith in his wife's fidelity?

                      In short, your belief that Christian faith is grounded on nothing but wishful thinking is just more of your inexcusable ignorance on display.

                      See: What is Faith? by JP Holding

                      Now either respond to my entire post, or don't bother responding at all.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        And I answered:

                        As for your question above, you have no idea what faith even is, otherwise you would not be asking such stupid questions. "Faith", as the word is used in the Bible, means a confident assurance based on evidence (Hebrews 11:1). For instance, a husband is assured that his wife will not cheat on him in the future based on the evidence that she has never cheated on him in the past. Tell me, would you scoff at a husband who expressed such faith in his wife's fidelity?

                        In short, your belief that Christian faith is grounded on nothing but wishful thinking is just more of your inexcusable ignorance on display.

                        See: What is Faith? by JP Holding

                        Now either respond to my entire post, or don't bother responding at all.
                        I have addressed your previous comments.

                        You have not directly answered my question. I therefore consider our exchange on this issue at an end
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          I have addressed your previous comments.

                          You have not directly answered my question. I therefore consider our exchange on this issue at an end
                          Your stubborn refusal to inform yourself is noted.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Paul's congregations were not encouraged by Paul to accept overly much on (blind) faith at all. For him, faith needed to be based on evidence.
                            And what evidence could he provide apart from his own contentions?

                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              And what evidence could he provide apart from his own contentions?
                              According to Paul:
                              1 Corinthians 2

                              4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
                              5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

                              Romans 15
                              17 Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God.
                              18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,
                              19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


                              According to Paul, signs and wonders provided the needed supporting evidence that his preaching was true, including his claim that Jesus had risen from the dead.

                              He also expected that the signs and wonders would not be acceptable as evidence in the absence of scriptural support for his claims.

                              In other places he points to the ability of the congregations themselves to perform signs and wonders as verification, and declared that false teachers could not exercise authority.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                According to Paul:
                                1 Corinthians 2

                                4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
                                5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

                                Romans 15
                                17 Therefore in Christ Jesus I have found reason for boasting in things pertaining to God.
                                18 For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,
                                19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.


                                According to Paul, signs and wonders provided the needed supporting evidence that his preaching was true, including his claim that Jesus had risen from the dead.

                                He also expected that the signs and wonders would not be acceptable as evidence in the absence of scriptural support for his claims.

                                In other places he points to the ability of the congregations themselves to perform signs and wonders as verification, and declared that false teachers could not exercise authority.
                                We appear to be back to believing six impossible things before breakfast.



                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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