Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

How can we know that God is?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Your whining about this is like listening to someone claim you didn't provide evidence that the dog was the one to poop in the house even though it's dog poop and she was the only one there all day.

    And an example of "wild speculation" was your claim that Peter was a starving fisherman barely able to catch enough to feed himself when there is absolutely no evidence for that and plenty to contradict it (he owned a fair-sized house, and a boat).
    As you have edited your post - let me add this.

    Nor did I ever write that this figure was "starving" and "barely able to catch enough to feed himself". That appears to be yet another example of your imagination running wild..
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      You never replied to my post [#939] https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...63#post1376518
      Once again you have shown your inability to a post a link. That takes me to the top of the page.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        1500 residents is more than a village, large or small. Even today that is a fair-sized town.
        Reed does not refer to Capernaum as a town or city. From another of his works, Excavating Jesus, John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L Reed, revised edition, 2009, HarperCollins:

        First-century Capernaum was a modest Jewish village on the periphery of Antipas's territory relying chiefly on agriculture and fishing. An oppressive heat hovers over Capernaum during the long summers, the fields nearby are rocky and difficult to work, and in Jesus' day it was off any major trade route. It was not a sought-out spot, but a good place to get away from, with easy access across the Sea of Galilee to any side. It was only a short distance from the territory of Herod Philip, a fairer and more moderate ruler than his half brother Antipas, according to Josephus. In both area and population, first century Capernaum was dwarfed by Caesarea and was much smaller than Sepphoris and Tiberias. They covered areas of around 100 to 150 acres and had populations of eight to twelve thousand, but Capernaum was much more modest at around 25 acres and one thousand inhabitants. Capernaum was a step up from Nazareth, but many, many steps down from Sepphoris or Tiberias, and not steps but worlds below Caesarea.


        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          You did not read to the end of the opening comment on Kirby's site - or chose not to post it. My emphasis.

          As to dating, Perrin suggests (The New Testament: An Introduction, p. 262): "He is probably the latest of all the New Testament writers, and a date about A.D. 140 would be appropriate." Nearly all scholars would agree with a date sometime in the second century, probably in the second quarter.
          I am not among those who consider it strange to reject a conclusion when its underpinning premise is flawed.
          Last edited by tabibito; 05-14-2022, 06:17 AM.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            As you have edited your post - let me add this.

            Nor did I ever write that this figure was "starving" and "barely able to catch enough to feed himself". That appears to be yet another example of your imagination running wild..
            To add "even though it's dog poop."

            And what do you imagine subsistence level means, which was how you described him. Barely scraping by with the barest necessities to survive. That would be "barely able to catch enough to feed himself."

            Out of curiosity, have you ever been in a Third World country? I don't mean visited the capital or some tourist hotspot, but actually out in the countryside (and not in a bus going from the airport to the tourist trap). You might see what you so flippantly described for real and realize that if someone is a subsistence fisherman they are barely eking out a living. They are quite literally on the edge of surviving where one bad break would likely cost them their lives.

            But Peter owned a house large enough for both his family, his brother (and his family if he was married as was expected) along with his mother-in-law, a boat large enough to carry Jesus and the disciples, and had business partners (although I've seen them defined as employees in some places).

            He made the move from his hometown to Capernaum, which was almost certainly a business decision to avoid paying extra taxes or fees, which wouldn't have been necessary if all he caught was enough to feed himself.

            Everything suggests that Peter, while by no means rich, was moderately successful by the standards of the day, which contradicts your wild speculation to the contrary.

            New Advent Encyclopedia:

            Simon settled in Capharnaum, where he was living with his mother-in-law in his own house (Matthew 8:14; Luke 4:38) at the beginning of Christ's public ministry (about A.D. 26-28). Simon was thus married, and, according to Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, III, vi, ed. Dindorf, II, 276), had children. The same writer relates the tradition that Peter's wife suffered martyrdom (ibid., VII, xi ed. cit., III, 306). Concerning these facts, adopted by Eusebius (Church History III.31) from Clement, the ancient Christian literature which has come down to us is silent. Simon pursued in Capharnaum the profitable occupation of fisherman in Lake Genesareth, possessing his own boat (Luke 5:3).


            [*bolding added*]


            According to a BBC program on early Christianity from June 21, 2011:

            The Bible tells us that Peter was a fisherman by trade and that he lived in the village of Capernaum on the shores of Lake Galilee. Early in three of the gospel accounts there is a story of Jesus healing Peter's mother-in-law, which clearly implies Peter had his own house and that it accommodated his extended family. All these details are historically plausible but recent archaeology has been able to support them with hard evidence ... Life was undoubtedly far from easy in first-century Galilee; the land was occupied by the Romans, taxes were high and labour was hard. However, both the house and the boat can help to dispel the romantic notion that Peter was a humble fisherman from a rural backwater. Galilee was in fact a strategic part of the Roman Empire and Capernaum and the surrounding settlements were centres of commerce where at least two languages were spoken. Could it be that Peter was not in fact a poor fisherman but a businessman with his own boat, hired help and a family to feed?


            [*bolding added*]

            Last edited by rogue06; 05-14-2022, 06:43 AM.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              Reed does not refer to Capernaum as a town or city. From another of his works, Excavating Jesus, John Dominic Crossan and Jonathan L Reed, revised edition, 2009, HarperCollins:

              First-century Capernaum was a modest Jewish village on the periphery of Antipas's territory relying chiefly on agriculture and fishing. An oppressive heat hovers over Capernaum during the long summers, the fields nearby are rocky and difficult to work, and in Jesus' day it was off any major trade route. It was not a sought-out spot, but a good place to get away from, with easy access across the Sea of Galilee to any side. It was only a short distance from the territory of Herod Philip, a fairer and more moderate ruler than his half brother Antipas, according to Josephus. In both area and population, first century Capernaum was dwarfed by Caesarea and was much smaller than Sepphoris and Tiberias. They covered areas of around 100 to 150 acres and had populations of eight to twelve thousand, but Capernaum was much more modest at around 25 acres and one thousand inhabitants. Capernaum was a step up from Nazareth, but many, many steps down from Sepphoris or Tiberias, and not steps but worlds below Caesarea.

              Reed might know history or whatever, but he sucks when it comes to defining what constitutes a village, a town or a city. Back then 1500 was a mid-sized town.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                In fact, the evidence we have for the miracles of Jesus is exactly the kind of evidence we have for most other ancient events: written accounts by either eyewitnesses or those who lived at the time of the eyewitnesses.

                And again, your use of the word "independently" is suspicious. As I noted in another thread:

                That's a red herring. When skeptics say "independent sources", they're really asking for something written by someone who would have no reason to write about Jesus or Christianity.
                Not a red herring atl,the requirement of independent and multiple sources has always been a standarde of all academic history concerning ancient texts and contemporary history religious or not. Second hand oral testimony has never been accepted by academic history for the miraculous and supernatural whether the Resurrection of JEsus or the dragons of China.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Oh I forgot. You think your fanciful speculations are "fact"!
                  That Peter was born in Bethsaida and moved to Capernaum is attested to.

                  That Peter owned a house there that was large enough to accommodate an extended family is attested to.

                  That Peter owned a boat large enough for Jesus and the disciples to use for transportation is attested to.

                  That Peter had business partners or employees is attested to.

                  That Peter was a subsistence-level fisherman, only catching enough to feed himself, is absolutely not attested to and contradicts what is.

                  Fail better.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                    Not a red herring atl,the requirement of independent and multiple sources has always been a standarde of all academic history concerning ancient texts and contemporary history religious or not. Second hand oral testimony has never been accepted by academic history for the miraculous and supernatural whether the Resurrection of JEsus or the dragons of China.
                    The bolded is absolute bull scat.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The bolded is absolute bull scat.
                      Best to support the claim with something posted in this very thread
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The fact is that today we have but a tiny fraction of what used to be available. This is particularly true regarding any sort of contemporary sources from forties through the sixties of the first century A.D. As the historian and Biblical academic Edward Musgrave Blaiklock, chair of classics at the University of Auckland for over 20 years, put it in his Jesus Christ: Man or Myth?:

                      "Bookends set a foot apart on this desk where I write would enclose the works from those significant years."


                      And yet, in spite of there being a dearth of historical records from antiquity we do have a comparably large collection of Christian writings in spite of having endured more than a couple centuries of persecution.

                      If you've been following the thread I'm sure you already have seen this:



                      I'll toss this quote from Greg Koukl in here for good measure

                      [box]
                      The important First Century document The Jewish War, by Jewish aristocrat and historian Josephus, survives in only nine complete manuscripts dating from the 5th Century—four centuries after they were written. Tacitus’ Annals of Imperial Rome is one of the chief historical sources for the Roman world of New Testament times, yet, surprisingly, it survives in partial form in only two manuscripts dating from the Middle Ages. Thucydides’ History survives in eight copies. There are 10 copies of Caesar’s Gallic Wars, eight copies of Herodotus’ History, and seven copies of Plato, all dated over a millennium from the original. Homer’s Iliad has the most impressive manuscript evidence for any secular work with 647 existing copies.



                      Along with the following quotes (apart from the aforementioned one by Blaiklock)



                      "Major contours of history hang on much thinner wires than the events of the New Testament and nobody doubts them!"
                      --Scott Chandler



                      "If we apply to the Bible the credence we would to other literary documents, Scripture is a slam dunk. Conversely, if you discount Scripture, then all of ancient history is a sham. Professor and philosopher John Warwick Montgomery was right: “to be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament books is to let all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no other documents of the ancient periods are as well attested as the New Testament."
                      --ibid



                      "Many facts from antiquity rest on just one ancient source, while two or three sources in agreement generally render the fact unimpeachable."
                      --Paul Maier



                      "Let's look at an even better example, a contemporary of Jesus. Tiberius Caesar was the Roman emperor at the time of Jesus' ministry and execution. Tiberius is mentioned by ten sources within 150 years of his death: Tacitus, Suetonius, Velleius Paterculus, Plutarch, Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Seneca, Valerius Maximus, Josephus, and Luke. Compare that to Jesus' forty-two total sources in the same length of time. That's more than four times the number of total sources who mention the Roman emperor during roughly the same period. If we only considered the number of secular non-Christian sources who mention Jesus and Tiberius within 150 years of their lives, we arrive at a tie of nine each"
                      --Habermas and Licona



                      "Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective."
                      --Frederick Fyvie (F.F.) Bruce



                      "If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt."
                      --ibid



                      "For the New Testament of Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted."
                      --Adrian Nicolas (A.N.) Sherwin-White



                      And back to Blaiklock

                      "No classical scholar would listen to an argument that the authenticity of Herodotus or Thucydides is in doubt because the earliest manuscripts of their works which are of any use to us are over 1300 years later than the originals."
                      --E. M. Blaiklock



                      "I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history
                      --ibid


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                        Not a red herring atl,the requirement of independent and multiple sources has always been a standarde of all academic history concerning ancient texts and contemporary history religious or not. Second hand oral testimony has never been accepted by academic history for the miraculous and supernatural whether the Resurrection of JEsus or the dragons of China.
                        We do have multiple, contemporary, independent sources that attest to the Resurrection of Jesus. Just because the Christian community compiled them into a single volume known today as "The Bible" doesn't change that fact.

                        ... the Christian writer seems, by the usual course of the argument, to have been deprived of the common presumption of charity in his favor; and reversing the ordinary rule of administering justice in human tribunals, his testimony is unjustly presumed to be false, until it is proved to be true. This treatment, moreover, has been applied to them all in a body; and, without due regard to the fact, that, being independent historians, writing at different periods, they are entitled to the support of each other: they have been treated, in the argument, almost as if the New Testament were the entire production, at once, of a body of men, conspiring by a joint fabrication, to impose a false religion upon the world. It is time that this injustice should cease; that the testimony of the evangelists should be admitted to be true, until it can be disproved by those who would impugn it; that the silence of one sacred writer on any point should no more detract from his own veracity or that of the other historians, than the like circumstance is permitted to do among profane writers; and that the Four Evangelists should be admitted in corroboration of each other, as readily as Josephus and Tacitus, or Polybius and Livy.

                        https://www.classicapologetics.com/g/GreenTes1.html
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Reed might know history or whatever, but he sucks when it comes to defining what constitutes a village, a town or a city. Back then 1500 was a mid-sized town.
                          How amusing! You dismiss your own source for [in your opinion] not being reliable:

                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          A large town or small city. According to J. Reed's Archaeology and the Galilean Jesus: A Reexamination of the Evidence the population was likely 1500.

                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            That Peter was born in Bethsaida and moved to Capernaum is attested to.

                            That Peter owned a house there that was large enough to accommodate an extended family is attested to.

                            That Peter owned a boat large enough for Jesus and the disciples to use for transportation is attested to.

                            That Peter had business partners or employees is attested to.

                            That Peter was a subsistence-level fisherman, only catching enough to feed himself, is absolutely not attested to and contradicts what is.

                            Fail better.
                            Only in much later Christian texts.

                            Or are you going to next claim that we have his birth and school records?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Only in much later Christian texts.

                              Or are you going to next claim that we have his birth and school records?
                              "Much later"

                              Everything there was from the Gospels.

                              Btw, in your fevered imagination, exactly where else would you expect to find biographical information on Peter?

                              We got some on James from Josephus, but not because his topic was James, but rather Ananus and his actions. James just happened to be the one on the receiving end of said actions. If not for that Josephus never would have had cause to ever mention James.

                              So, again, exactly where else would you expect to find biographical information on Peter aside from Christian writings?

                              Moreover, are you so deep into conspiracy theories that you actually think that the earliest Christian writer would lie about such trifling details about him? For what purpose?

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                And what do you imagine subsistence level means, which was how you described him. Barely scraping by with the barest necessities to survive. That would be "barely able to catch enough to feed himself."
                                Once again you are making a sweeping generalisation that is not borne out by present day facts of artisanal/subsistence fishing communities around the globe regardless of anything from 2000 years ago. Such communities today do not always result in those individuals involved being "barely able to catch enough to feed" either themselves or their families.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                But Peter owned a house large enough for both his family, his brother (and his family if he was married as was expected) along with his mother-in-law, a boat large enough to carry Jesus and the disciples, and had business partners (although I've seen them defined as employees in some places).

                                He made the move from his hometown to Capernaum, which was almost certainly a business decision to avoid paying extra taxes or fees, which wouldn't have been necessary if all he caught was enough to feed himself.

                                Everything suggests that Peter, while by no means rich, was moderately successful by the standards of the day, which contradicts your wild speculation to the contrary.
                                All the above is pure speculation on your part premised on Christian texts as this character in not attested in any extraneous contemporary sources. I decided not to ask if his motive for moving to Capernaum was to avoid the Galilean IRS!


                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                New Advent Encyclopedia:

                                Simon settled in Capharnaum, where he was living with his mother-in-law in his own house (Matthew 8:14; Luke 4:38) at the beginning of Christ's public ministry (about A.D. 26-28). Simon was thus married, and, according to Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, III, vi, ed. Dindorf, II, 276), had children. The same writer relates the tradition that Peter's wife suffered martyrdom (ibid., VII, xi ed. cit., III, 306). Concerning these facts, adopted by Eusebius (Church History III.31) from Clement, the ancient Christian literature which has come down to us is silent. Simon pursued in Capharnaum the profitable occupation of fisherman in Lake Genesareth, possessing his own boat (Luke 5:3).


                                [*bolding added*]
                                While the Catholic New Advent Encyclopaedia can be an authoritative source one must bear in mind its religious basis. It has [to use a metaphor] an axe to grind.


                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                According to a BBC program on early Christianity from June 21, 2011:
                                Which BBC programme, and who presented it? Whoever they were, if what you have posted is verbatim they need to be more precise as they have made several erroneous statements.

                                Re the BBC comment:

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                The Bible tells us that Peter was a fisherman by trade and that he lived in the village of Capernaum on the shores of Lake Galilee. Early in three of the gospel accounts there is a story of Jesus healing Peter's mother-in-law, which clearly implies Peter had his own house and that it accommodated his extended family. All these details are historically plausible but recent archaeology has been able to support them with hard evidence
                                What archaeological discoveries have been made that verify Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law or that Peter had his own house and that it accommodated his extended family?

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                ... Life was undoubtedly far from easy in first-century Galilee; the land was occupied by the Romans
                                Galilee was not occupied by the Romans in the early first century CE. It was a separate client kingdom.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                , taxes were high and labour was hard.
                                The taxes of Antipas, not of Rome. The task of appraising the kinds and levels of taxes that Herod the Great and his successors imposed on their subjects suffers from a lack of sufficient evidence leaving it nigh on impossible to accurately identify the types of taxes that were imposed. Freyne deals with this topic at length in his chapter in Modelling Early Christianity, Social-scientific studies of the New Testament in its Context, Ed P. F Esler, Routledge, 1995.

                                And indeed for many throughout the ancient world [as today] life was hard.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                However, [B]both the house and the boat can help to dispel the romantic notion that Peter was a humble fisherman from a rural backwater. Galilee was in fact a strategic part of the Roman Empire
                                Galilee was not part of the Roman empire in the early first century CE.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                and Capernaum and the surrounding settlements were centres of commerce where at least two languages were spoken.
                                Unsupported and tentative speculation.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Could it be that Peter was not in fact a poor fisherman but a businessman with his own boat, hired help and a family to feed?
                                A question that no one can answer because we have no corroborative extraneous contemporary evidence for this individual with which to cross-reference those Christian texts.

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by tabibito, 05-12-2022, 10:42 PM
                                36 responses
                                168 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 05-10-2022, 06:04 PM
                                5 responses
                                55 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 05-02-2022, 09:53 AM
                                70 responses
                                380 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by lee_merrill, 04-24-2022, 06:02 PM
                                138 responses
                                763 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 04-20-2022, 12:01 PM
                                223 responses
                                1,309 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post shunyadragon  
                                Working...
                                X