How can we know that God is?

[little_monkey]

It would seem that even atheistic commentators accept the early existence of the creed(s) identifited in 1 Cor 15:3-7 (or a section thereof)

https://beliefmap.org/bible/1-corinthians/15-creed/date

The strong majority of historians acknowledge that the creed dates back to AD 30-35.¹ A very small minority go to AD 41.²

• The Oxford Companion to the Bible: “The earliest record of these appearances is to be found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, a tradition that Paul ‘received’ after his apostolic call, certainly not later than his visit to Jerusalem in 35 CE, when he saw Cephas (Peter) and James (Gal. 1:18-19), who, like him, were recipients of appearances.” [Eds. Metzer & Coogan (Oxford, 1993), 647.]

• Gerd Lüdemann (Atheist NT professor at Göttingen): “…the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus…not later than three years… the formation of the appearance traditions mentioned in I Cor.15.3-8 falls into the time between 30 and 33 CE.” [The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.]

• Robert Funk (Non-Christian scholar, founder of the Jesus Seminar): “…The conviction that Jesus had risen from the dead had already taken root by the time Paul was converted about 33 C.E. On the assumption that Jesus died about 30 C.E., the time for development was thus two or three years at most.” [Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.]
• James Dunn (Professor at Durham): “Despite uncertainties about the extent of tradition which Paul received (126), there is no reason to doubt that this information was communicated to Paul as part of his introductory catechesis (16.3) (127). He would have needed to be informed of precedents in order to make sense of what had happened to him. When he says, ‘I handed on (paredoka) to you as of first importance (en protois) what I also received (parelabon)’ (15.3), he assuredly does not imply that the tradition became important to him only at some subsequent date. More likely he indicates the importance of the tradition to himself from the start; that was why he made sure to pass it on to the Corinthians when they first believed (15.1-2) (128). This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus' death. [Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.]

• Michael Goulder (Atheist NT professor at Birmingham): “[It] goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion. [“The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oneworld, 1996), 48.]

• A. J. M. Wedderburn (Non-Christian NT professor at Munich): “One is right to speak of ‘earliest times’ here, … most probably in the first half of the 30s.” [Beyond Resurrection (Hendrickson, 1999), 113-114.]

• N.T. Wright (NT scholar [Oxford, 5+ honorary Ph.ds]): “This is the kind of foundation-story with which a community is not at liberty to tamper. It was probably formulated within the first two or three years after Easter itself, since it was already in formulaic form when Paul ‘received’ it. (So Hays 1997, 255.)” [The Resurrection of the Son of God (Fortress, 2003), 319.]

Many also speak of how early, in general, the creed must have been.³

• Some feel the creed was “in use by AD 30” ( Walter Kasper, Jesus the Christ, trans. V. Geen (Paulist, 1976), 125.). Virtually no scholar puts it beyond the 40s (Gerald O’Collins, What Are They Saying About the Resurrection (Paulist Press, 1978), 112.].).
  • Peter May: “Christ’s death is generally thought to have occurred in AD 30 (or 33).4 Paul wrote his letter to the church at Corinth around AD 55, some 25 years later. He had delivered this creed to them when he visited Corinth in AD 51. Few dates could be more certain, because while he was there he was hauled up before the Roman proconsul Gallio (Acts 18:12-17). Gallio, who subsequently conspired against Nero, was the brother of the philosopher Seneca. Proconsulship was a one year post and a Roman stone inscription found early in the 20th century at nearby Delphi records his period of office as being AD 51-52. This date is so firmly established that it has become one of the lynchpins for working out the dates of the rest of New Testament chronology.” [“The Resurrection of Jesus and the Witness of Paul,” (2008) online a bethinking.org]
• Technically, there will also always be odd three to five mythicist scholars as well who are forced to dismiss the passage as something a later scribe added to Paul's letter. Robert Price is the main mythicist who has argued for this.
• For example,...
  • Ulrich Wilckens: “indubitably goes back to the oldest phase of all in the history of primitive Christianity.” [Resurrection: Biblical Testimony to the Resurrection: An Historical Examination and Explanation (St. Andrew Press, 1977), 2.]

• 
  
  

From the creed

¹ “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
³ For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that ‘Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
⁴ and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
⁵and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.’
⁶‘After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
⁷then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;’
⁸ and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also.”

There's nothing in there that anyone can situate when those words were written. It could have been not too long after the alleged events (1 to 3 years), or some 10, 20, 30 years... or whatever happens to be your preference. Also, just because someone wrote these words, doesn't make that the fairy tale of any of those alleged events really happened.

[seer]

So tell me, does the last part: "And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell." refer to brother or not?

Yes as I said, the context is referring to brothers.

[tabibito]

From the creed


There's nothing in there that anyone can situate when those words were written. It could have been not too long after the alleged events (1 to 3 years), or some 10, 20, 30 years... or whatever happens to be your preference. Also, just because someone wrote these words, doesn't make that the fairy tale of any of those alleged events really happened. [/INDENT]

The issue was (and is) whether the creed existed at an early date - what you believe about the truth of the content of that creed is not germane.

[tabibito]

Luther really was no fan of James, which he called a "right strawy epistle" (usually read as an "epistle of straw"), and called for its removal from being taught in Wittenberg's school:



But he never formally called for its removal from Canon.

Perhaps not - formally that is. That he did declare James to be mistaken and "right strawy epistle" says it is worthless. If that index to his early Bible is correct, he did in fact remove the books from the canon, though not from the Bible.

[little_monkey]

The issue was (and is) whether the creed existed at an early date ...

You're not answering my post: can anyone situate when those words were written? From my POV, anything goes.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The issue was (and is) whether the creed existed at an early date

To which the short answer is [scholarly speculation and supposition aside] we do not know.

Nor is a tradition an established fact. Furthermore, what constituted Paul's catechesis given the word's association with the Christian religion?

Once again I ask the question, to what was Paul being converted?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You're not answering my post: can anyone situate when those words were written? From my POV, anything goes.

Not precisely. We do not know the exact year that Jesus was executed. Tabor is very emphatic and declares it to have been in April 30 CE but he cannot know that.

We know Pilate held the office of Praefectus for 10 years [26-37 CE - see Bond] and therefore Jesus' execution could have been at any time in that period. However, it is generally presumed to have taken place between 30 and 33 CE.

[Sparko]

Tell me LM, did your parents ever have any children who lived?

Somewhere a village is missing their idiot. LM argues like a 14 year old who found a New Atheist website, written by another 14 year old. He has been shown his claim of 10's of thousands of denominations is wrong yet he just keeps repeating it. And he has shown he has no idea what textual criticism is, nor that Paul wrote public letters and made public speeches to people who could easily check his claims.

[rogue06]

To which the short answer is [scholarly speculation and supposition aside] we do not know.

A pronouncement made not because you have contrary evidence that the legion of scholars who looked at this don't have, but rather because you have put a lot of trust in your claim that anything about Jesus comes from several decades after his death (as if that's a legitimate objection regarding someone from ancient times) to prop up your disbelief.

So, you sit there nibbling your strudel in your comfy chair, pretending again that you're some sort of historian while gainsaying all of those who actually are and have spoken out about this all because you simply can not afford to be wrong about this. No evidence. No facts. Just a "nuh-uh." You just have to much invested in it not being so.

Once again I ask the question, to what was Paul being converted?

To believing that Jesus is the Messiah. If you don't think that counts, then go tell the Jews who stoned Stephen or those who started kicking Jewish Christians out of synagogues.

[rogue06]

Somewhere a village is missing their idiot. LM argues like a 14 year old who found a New Atheist website, written by another 14 year old. He has been shown his claim of 10's of thousands of denominations is wrong yet he just keeps repeating it. And he has shown he has no idea what textual criticism is, nor that Paul wrote public letters and made public speeches to people who could easily check his claims.

No need to insult 14 year olds.

[tabibito]

Not precisely. We do not know the exact year that Jesus was executed. Tabor is very emphatic and declares it to have been in April 30 CE but he cannot know that.

We know Pilate held the office of Praefectus for 10 years [26-37 CE - see Bond] and therefore Jesus' execution could have been at any time in that period. However, it is generally presumed to have taken place between 30 and 33 CE.

A person could be forgiven for thinking it would be relatively easy to trace. It should only be a matter of finding the year(s) in which Nisan 15 fell on a Friday.

[little_monkey]

Somewhere a village is missing their idiot. LM argues like a 14 year old who found a New Atheist website, written by another 14 year old. He has been shown his claim of 10's of thousands of denominations is wrong yet he just keeps repeating it. And he has shown he has no idea what textual criticism is, nor that Paul wrote public letters and made public speeches to people who could easily check his claims.

Sparko, the only thing you know is a fairy tale, and oddly you think you have it all. What you have is an illusion. But an illusion multiplying itself in greater number across the planet, You can't deal with 45,000 Christian denominations, so your only recourse is to deny, deny, and deny. You're like an ostrich with its head in the sand, hoping desperately all will go away. But the number of Christian denominations is growing in number faster than your denial. I remember posting here several years ago, and that number was around 10,000. Now it's 45,000. In a few years, it will surpass 100,000. And there's nothing you can do to stop this hemorrhage - people dissatisfied with their denomination, and on their own, establish a new congregation. It's a sickness. Your fairy tale is a sickness. Get professional help. There's still time for you.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A person could be forgiven for thinking it would be relatively easy to trace. It should only be a matter of finding the year(s) in which Nisan 15 fell on a Friday.

I know this is one of your favourite hobbyhorses but yet again you are using later texts from those not present at the events.

[tabibito]

I know this is one of your favourite hobbyhorses but yet again you are using later texts from those not present at the events.

I note with some interest that you are fond of that word. It is almost as though you think the ad hominem should be considered a compelling counter argument.

[tabibito]

A pronouncement made not because you have contrary evidence that the legion of scholars who looked at this don't have, but rather because you have put a lot of trust in your claim that anything about Jesus comes from several decades after his death (as if that's a legitimate objection regarding someone from ancient times) to prop up your disbelief.

Unfortunately, many of those self same scholars don't use a lens materially different from hers.