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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    How is it that you can be unsure about how I can arrive at the conclusion when I have already posted a copy of the official Samaritan bulletin explicitly stating that the sacrifice is conducted at the start of the 14th? Why would a secondary source be considered superior to the primary source, particularly if the secondary source is indeed in conflict with the primary?

    How you interpret secondary sources is not at all relevant. Perhaps you should consider whether all the preparations for cooking the sacrifice might be done prior to conducting the sacrifice.
    That was from an eye-witness and the preparations begin on the 14th and the sacrifice is at the end of 14th. Not the beginning.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      That was from an eye-witness and the preparations begin on the 14th and the sacrifice is at the end of 14th. Not the beginning.
      I have read the account in BAS. Your interpretation of the article would be reasonable if it did not conflict with the explicit information in the bulletin provided by the Samaritan priests themselves. Whether originating with an eye-witness or not, the article that has been filtered through editors is not as authoritative as an original and explicit bulletin originating with the Samaritan priesthood itself.

      ETA: On the basis of that article, were it not for that bulletin, I would still be unable to tie the Samaritan rite to the gospel descriptions. Reading that article prevented making the necessary connections.
      Last edited by tabibito; 07-10-2022, 06:55 AM.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        I have read the account in BAS. Your interpretation of the article would be reasonable if it did not conflict with the explicit information in the bulletin provided by the Samaritan priests themselves. Whether originating with an eye-witness or not, the article that has been filtered through editors is not as authoritative as an original and explicit bulletin originating with the Samaritan priesthood itself.
        So an eye witness to an event is discounted by you?

        I wonder why that might be?
        Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-10-2022, 06:58 AM.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          So an eye witness to an event is discounted by you?

          I wonder why that might be!
          There's an ETA on my prior post
          Again with the straw-man. The eye-witness report, filtered through the hands of editors who might have eliminated a seemingly unnecessary word or three (and that is all it would take) and whether or not that was done, is not as authoritative as an explicit official bulletin produced by the people charged with the responsibility to make sure that people don't turn up a day early for the event. There is no valid cause to ask why an eye-witness account would be discounted in such or similar circumstances.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            There's an ETA on my prior post
            Again with the straw-man. The eye-witness report, filtered through the hands of editors who might have eliminated a seemingly unnecessary word or three (and that is all it would take) and whether or not that was done, is not as authoritative as an explicit official bulletin produced by the people charged with the responsibility to make sure that people don't turn up a day early for the event. There is no valid cause to ask why an eye-witness account would be discounted in such or similar circumstances.

            Both that eye-witness and the site I quoted from make the same observation.

            Preparations begin on the 14th day and the sacrifice is carried by the Samaritans as that day comes to an end. The sacrifice does not take place [according to their definition of a day] at the beginning of 14th
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


              Both that eye-witness and the site I quoted from make the same observation.

              Preparations begin on the 14th day and the sacrifice is carried by the Samaritans as that day comes to an end. The sacrifice does not take place [according to their definition of a day] at the beginning of 14th

              Please be kind enough to point out precisely where that article states, "Preparations begin on the 14th day and the sacrifice is carried by the Samaritans as that day comes to an end"


              On the 14th day of the first month of the Samaritan calendar,c the Samaritans bring the sheep selected for the sacrifice to the area of the altar.

              Shortly before sunset, the high priest and other community dignitaries arrive, and the prayers begin. ...

              All afternoon, ovens, or tannurim (stone-lined pits about 6 feet deep and 4 feet in diameter), are heated so as to be ready for the roasting of the sheep in the evening.


              Nothing says that the afternoon in question is the the afternoon of the fourteenth.

              As I previously indicated, the afternoon of the fourteenth would be a reasonable interpretation in the absence of explicit information to the contrary from the Samaritan priesthood itself. In the absence of an explicit statement in the text of your article, your interpretation that pits it in conflict with the Samaritan priesthood's own statements can be safely rejected. Even if the article did explicitly state that the sacrifice was conducted at the end of the fourteenth, it would be a matter of considering which of the witnesses would be the more authoritative.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post


                Please be kind enough to point out precisely where that article states, "Preparations begin on the 14th day and the sacrifice is carried by the Samaritans as that day comes to an end"


                On the 14th day of the first month of the Samaritan calendar,c the Samaritans bring the sheep selected for the sacrifice to the area of the altar.

                Shortly before sunset, the high priest and other community dignitaries arrive, and the prayers begin. ...

                All afternoon, ovens, or tannurim (stone-lined pits about 6 feet deep and 4 feet in diameter), are heated so as to be ready for the roasting of the sheep in the evening.


                Nothing says that the afternoon in question is the the afternoon of the fourteenth.

                As I previously indicated, the afternoon of the fourteenth would be a reasonable interpretation in the absence of explicit information to the contrary from the Samaritan priesthood itself. In the absence of an explicit statement in the text of your article, your interpretation that pits it in conflict with the Samaritan priesthood's own statements can be safely rejected. Even if the article did explicitly state that the sacrifice was conducted at the end of the fourteenth, it would be a matter of considering which of the witnesses would be the more authoritative.
                From both BAR and the site from which I quoted:

                BAR

                On the 14th day of the first month of the Samaritan calendar,c the Samaritans bring the sheep selected for the sacrifice to the area of the altar, located about 2,500 feet below the highest peak of Mt. Gerizim. The number of sheep depends on the size of the community. The Bible prescribes “a lamb for each family, a lamb for each household. If a household is too small for a whole lamb, it shall join its closest neighbor in obtaining one; the lamb shall be divided in proportion to the number of people who eat of it” (Exodus 12:3–4). When I observed the ceremony, 21 sheep were sacrificed.

                All afternoon, ovens, or tannurim (stone-lined pits about 6 feet deep and 4 feet in diameter), are heated so as to be ready for the roasting of the sheep in the evening.

                Shortly before sunset, the high priest and other community dignitaries arrive, and the prayers begin. At sunset, the sheep are slaughtered


                https://www.israelite-samaritans.com...ver/#sacrifice

                The day of the sacrifice arrives. At twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month the whole community of Israel gathers in the magnificent square. [...] The High Priest begins with the sacrifice prayer and announces the ritual slaughter. The experienced slaughterers bring the sheep to the altar and slaughter them.


                Can you explain why you consider the Samaritans would ignore the injunction in Exodus 12 concerning both the day and the time at which the sacrifice is to be offered? And what text from the Samaritan Torah would support their ignoring that injunction?
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  From both BAR and the site from which I quoted:

                  BAR

                  On the 14th day of the first month of the Samaritan calendar,c the Samaritans bring the sheep selected for the sacrifice to the area of the altar, located about 2,500 feet below the highest peak of Mt. Gerizim. The number of sheep depends on the size of the community. The Bible prescribes “a lamb for each family, a lamb for each household. If a household is too small for a whole lamb, it shall join its closest neighbor in obtaining one; the lamb shall be divided in proportion to the number of people who eat of it” (Exodus 12:3–4). When I observed the ceremony, 21 sheep were sacrificed.

                  All afternoon, ovens, or tannurim (stone-lined pits about 6 feet deep and 4 feet in diameter), are heated so as to be ready for the roasting of the sheep in the evening.

                  Shortly before sunset, the high priest and other community dignitaries arrive, and the prayers begin. At sunset, the sheep are slaughtered


                  https://www.israelite-samaritans.com...ver/#sacrifice

                  The day of the sacrifice arrives. At twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month the whole community of Israel gathers in the magnificent square. [...] The High Priest begins with the sacrifice prayer and announces the ritual slaughter. The experienced slaughterers bring the sheep to the altar and slaughter them.
                  So - you can't point to anything in your source that declares explicitly that the sacrifice is conducted at the end of the day. In fact, the Samaritan site states that the day of sacrifice arrives - last time you brought this up, I pointed out that the day doesn't arrive less than 3 hours before it ends.

                  Can you explain why you consider the Samaritans would ignore the injunction in Exodus 12 concerning both the day and the time at which the sacrifice is to be offered? And what text from the Samaritan Torah would support their ignoring that injunction?
                  Circling back to topics that I have already responded to.
                  The Torah is said to be ambiguous by the very source that you yourself have cited: your source continues with an interpretation from the Jewish perspective without ever mentioning that there is a Samaritan perspective.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-10-2022, 08:53 AM.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    So - you can't point to anything in your source that declares explicitly that the sacrifice is conducted at the end of the day. In fact, the Samaritan site states that the day of sacrifice arrives - last time you brought this up, I pointed out that the day doesn't arrive less than 3 hours before it ends.



                    Circling back to topics that I have already responded to.
                    The Torah is said to be ambiguous by the very source that you yourself have cited: your source continues with an interpretation from the Jewish perspective without ever mentioning that there is a Samaritan perspective.
                    Basic reading comprehension makes it clear that that on both sites the sacrifice for the Samaritans is conducted at the end of 14th.

                    And I am still waiting for you to provide an alternative text to Exodus 12 from the Samaritan Torah.

                    The site I linked made it quite clear:



                    To avoid any confusion the text created a link in chapter 12 to the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th, making it clear that this time is connected to the next day, and is to be done at the end of the 14th leading to the 15th day. One can notice a slight roughness in the transition between verses 14 and 15 where the text shifts from the Pesach to the feast. The subject of the whole chapter is the Pesach, and this section from v. 15 to 20 is “out of place”. This is not an unusual thing in the Torah, and sections which relate to one thing will be inserted into the storyline by association or relevance (S. Talmon “The Ways of the Biblical narrative, Hebrew University 1965).



                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      And I am still waiting for you to provide an alternative text to Exodus 12 from the Samaritan Torah.
                      Differences in the texts are not particularly significant - they are addressed below - differences in the way Jerusalem and Gerizim interpret the texts are significant. Yet again and yet again - Differences of valid interpretations of the text are possible as your own source declares without any possibility for doubt regarding his meaning.

                      The site I linked made it quite clear:



                      To avoid any confusion the text created a link in chapter 12 to the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th, making it clear that this time is connected to the next day, and is to be done at the end of the 14th leading to the 15th day. One can notice a slight roughness in the transition between verses 14 and 15 where the text shifts from the Pesach to the feast. The subject of the whole chapter is the Pesach, and this section from v. 15 to 20 is “out of place”. This is not an unusual thing in the Torah, and sections which relate to one thing will be inserted into the storyline by association or relevance (S. Talmon “The Ways of the Biblical narrative, Hebrew University 1965).


                      The site you linked to made it quite clear that only Passover as interpreted in the Second Temple rite is under review.

                      Analogy
                      When is Easter Sunday?
                      The simple standard definition of Easter is that it is the first Sunday after the full Moon that occurs on or after the spring equinox. If the full Moon falls on a Sunday then Easter is the next Sunday.




                      Very nice. Ask anyone who knows the answer and that is what they will tell you.

                      Unless that person has cause to mention the Eastern Church rite - in which case you will get a different answer (also provided by the RMG site).
                      What your author does - as has already been repeatedly pointed out - is give only the part of the answer that is relevant to the celebration of Passover according to the interpretations in the Second Temple rite. He doesn't even mention the Samaritan rite.

                      The same is true of ordinary explanations of the timing for Easter - the answer will ordinarily make no mention of any possible alternative, not even the existence of a possible alternative.

                      Exodus 12:18-19 No difference in translation between the Jerusalem and Gerizim texts.

                      However there is a minor difference in translation (NASB) of verse 15 between Jerusalem (anything leavened) and Gerizim (leavened bread):
                      Exodus 12:15 (Jerusalem) ‘Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
                      Exodus 12:15 (Gerizim) Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day and until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

                      There is a major difference in the interpretations of verse 15: Jerusalem calls the 15th of the first month the first day of unleavened, Gerazim calls the 14th of the first month the first day of unleavened. The text can be interpreted to support either interpretation: that is, the text is ambiguous.
                      Jerusalem runs the span from the end of the 14th/start of the 15th to the end of the 21st.
                      Gerizim runs the span from the start of the 14th to the end of the 20th/start of the 21st. In both cases, the stipulated seven day span is observed.
                      A Jewish site will call the 15th the first Day of Unleavened Bread. The Samaritan site calls the 14th the first Day of Unleavened Bread (as, obviously, do Matthew and Mark).

                      Exodus 12:6 ‘You shall keep it (the lamb) until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

                      So - what is the proper interpretation of "until" in verse 6? In English, for context, it would ordinarily be interpreted to indicate the advent of the 14th, but might reasonably be interpreted to mean until some time before end of the 14th. However, in Hebrew, there is no differentiation at all (so I am told). And your commentator, giving not the slightest hint that any other interpretation is possible, gives the interpretation as endorsed by Jerusalem.


                      In verses 15 and 6, the interpretation hinges on a single ambiguous word, and as happens all too often, the ambiguous sentences are interpreted without regard for the plain text of other sentences.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 07-10-2022, 03:40 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                        You mean like the opening to I Corinthians 15? And when we look at Acts, we can see that this message was one that Paul taught wherever he went.
                        Just because someone is consistent in his delusion doesn't make a case for that delusion.

                        During his first missionary journey, Paul preached Jesus’s resurrection and used the appearances to the disciples to substantiate that resurrection (Acts 13:26-31). Jesus’ resurrection featured prominently in Paul’s preaching in Thessalonica (Acts 17:3), Athens (17:31), and Corinth (note how I Corinthians 15:1 makes it clear Paul is repeating what he taught when he was there a couple of years earlier).
                        And that makes it all TROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

                        You've just scored 120 on the gullibility scale (0 to 100).



                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by little_monkey View Post

                          Just because someone is consistent in his delusion doesn't make a case for that delusion.



                          And that makes it all TROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

                          You've just scored 120 on the gullibility scale (0 to 100).


                          And to think, you spent several weeks carefully crafting that brilliant rejoinder.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            And to think, you spent several weeks seconds carefully crafting that brilliant rejoinder.
                            Thanks...

                            Comment

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