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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.


    It is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan i.e. the beginning of 15 Nisan. According to this

    https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...-Nissan-14.htm

    So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs. Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5


    I already noted that there was not a uniform single celebration of Passover.

    Therefore, when it comes to the celebration of the Passover sacrifice, while it was eaten on the 15th, it was considered to be the same day as the 14th.
    That may well be. It doesn't mean that all the first century Hebrews subscribed to the same practice. No more than it means that all people of Hebrew descent follow the same rite today.

    So once again if the Synoptics are correct and this was a Passover Seder taken as 14 Nissan ends and 15 Nissan begins where does that leave your contention that everything happened on 14 Nissan?
    The synoptics are correct by John's account. The last supper was not conducted according to the rite as followed by the adherents of the temple or today's Israelis. It would have been more akin to the passover of the Samaritan Jews, though held concurrently with the Jewish festival (which might have been concurrent with the Samaritan Jew's festival in that year).

    How given the timing of this Passover meal that Jesus is described partaking of with his disciples? Your four accounts do not add up.
    The part about the day of Jesus' burial is explicit and perfectly clear in all four gospels. The less clear or the ambiguous portions get interpreted taking into account the explicit portions; each gospel on the basis of its own record. After that, they can be compared. It is not possible to conduct a comparison without first knowing what each gospel individually states as precisely as possible.

    Mark 14 verses 53-54 They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes were assembled. 54 Peter had followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest...
    Unfortunately for your argument, there was no council convened in Mark 14. Mark 15:1 states that a council was convened, but it doesn't say where. Following Koine Greek literary conventions, that means the council convened in the expected location, which would have been in the temple grounds. The fact that the council was convened then shows that it had not been convened earlier.

    Mark 14 verse 55 Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they found none.
    As is the customary practice for an inquisition. ("Court" is essentially a formality.)
    Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 02:18 PM.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

    Comment


    • Originally posted by H_A
      So once again if the Synoptics are correct and this was a Passover Seder taken as 14 Nissan ends and 15 Nissan begins where does that leave your contention that everything happened on 14 Nissan?
      The synoptics are correct by John's account. The last supper was not conducted according to the rite as followed by the adherents of the temple or today's Israelis. It would have been more akin to the passover of the Samaritan Jews, though held concurrently with the Jewish festival (which might have been concurrent with the Samaritan Jew's festival in that year).

      ETA: And no, the synoptics do not state that it was conducted at the end of the fourteenth. With Jesus being buried toward the end of the fourteenth, the meal had to be eaten shortly after the beginning of the fourteenth.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
      Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

      "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        The synoptics are correct by John's account.
        These four accounts are contradictory.

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        The last supper was not conducted according to the rite as followed by the adherents of the temple or today's Israelis.
        On what textual evidence?

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        It would have been more akin to the passover of the Samaritan Jews,
        On what textual evidence?

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        though held concurrently with the Jewish festival (which might have been concurrent with the Samaritan Jew's festival in that year).
        You are trying to square that circle and your attempts are becoming increasingly desperate,

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        ETA: And no, the synoptics do not state that it was conducted at the end of the fourteenth.
        Then it was not a Passover meal and the three Synoptic accounts which describe it as a Passover meal are wrong.

        Originally posted by tabibito View Post
        With Jesus being buried toward the end of the fourteenth, the meal had to be eaten shortly after the beginning of the fourteenth.
        If it was eaten at the beginning of the fourteenth it was not an evening meal and it was not a Seder.

        Exodus 12. You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight. [i.e. the end of the 14th] . 8 They shall eat the lamb that same night; So the Seder is eaten at the end of 14 Nissan and consumed into the morning of 15 Nissan.

        Insofar as attested historical evidence is concerned there is none for the actual day that Jesus was executed. All we have are those gospel texts as they have come down to us, and they are not reliable..

        One might also opine that Pilate would not have been overly bothered as to the day upon which he had three Jewish peasants executed. And furthermore the process would have been an entirely Roman affair. No Jewish crowds and no Passover amnesty.

        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          These four accounts are contradictory.
          On what textual evidence? None that hasn't been wrested. The synoptic gospel accounts clearly show that the meal was eaten during the opening hours of the day of Preparation. That does not conform with the rite of Passover as conducted by the Jews, as you have so stridently pointed out. Jesus was buried just before the end of the same day that the meal was eaten. According to John also, that meal was eaten at the beginning of the day of Preparation, and Jesus was buried toward the end of that same day.

          {{Not according to the rite of the Jews}} On what textual evidence?
          You have already stated that the last supper was not conducted according to the Jewish rite of Passover. There are plenty of commentators who assert that the meal described by John was not a Passover meal.

          You are trying to square that circle and your attempts are becoming increasingly desperate,
          No evidence whatever supports your assertion.

          Simple fact - there was no single set Passover festival in first century Judaea. Simple fact - there is no single set Passover festival today. You don't get to decide what the descendants of the Hebrews are permitted to call Passover.

          Then it was not a Passover meal and the three Synoptic accounts which describe it as a Passover meal are wrong.
          You don't get to decide how the Passover is to be celebrated. The timing of the meal is clearly stated: if your contra-factual assertion had any merit, the authors of the gospels would indeed have misnamed the meal.

          If it was eaten at the beginning of the fourteenth it was not an evening meal and it was not a Seder.
          You would no doubt also declare that Passover cannot be celebrated in the second month. However, you don't get to decide when the Seder may be eaten. Oh - and no rite of Passover that I know of has the meal being eaten in the evening. The scriptures stipulate that it must be eaten at night.

          Exodus 12. You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; then the whole assembled congregation of Israel shall slaughter it at twilight. [i.e. the end of the 14th] .
          The Hebrew calendar day has an evening at its beginning, and the opening minutes to perhaps half an hour of the day are indeed twilight. The hours between three and five pm are not during twilight in anyone's language. There is some dispute about whether twilight should be considered a valid translation.

          8 They shall eat the lamb that same night; So the Seder is eaten at the end of 14 Nissan and consumed into the morning of 15 Nissan.
          The Samaritan Jews disagree. In the temple rite, the meal is eaten on the night (the first few hours) of the 15th. No rite of Passover that I am aware of has the meal being eaten in the morning.

          Insofar as attested historical evidence is concerned there is none for the actual day that Jesus was executed. All we have are those gospel texts as they have come down to us, and they are not reliable.
          That you disavow any historical value for the Bible shows an appalling disregard for facts.

          One might also opine that Pilate would not have been overly bothered as to the day upon which he had three Jewish peasants executed. And furthermore the process would have been an entirely Roman affair. No Jewish crowds and no Passover amnesty.
          An assertion based on no documented evidence whatever, though the possibility that there was no amnesty must be admitted on the basis of available evidence.
          Last edited by tabibito; 07-02-2022, 03:00 AM.
          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
          Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

          "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            On what textual evidence? None that hasn't been wrested. The synoptic gospel accounts clearly show that the meal was eaten during the opening hours of the day of Preparation. That does not conform with the rite of Passover as conducted by the Jews, as you have so stridently pointed out. Jesus was buried just before the end of the same day that the meal was eaten. According to John also, that meal was eaten at the beginning of the day of Preparation, and Jesus was buried toward the end of that same day.
            The four accounts are contradictory.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            You have already stated that the last supper was not conducted according to the Jewish rite of Passover.
            I have "stated" nothing.

            I put forward a suggestion that if the meal was eaten in the early hours of 14th it was not a Passover meal. However, that suggestion contradicts the three synoptic gospels which write of the day the disciples prepare for the Passover meal being the First Day of Unleavened Bread with both Mark and Luke including the comment "when the Passover lamb is sacrificed". Luke also writes that "When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you ".

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            There are plenty of commentators who assert that the meal described by John was not a Passover meal.
            There are some who contend that the synoptic accounts do not indicate a Seder either. In fact none of the four gospel accounts mention the lamb, the bitter herbs, or the four cups of wine. In John's gospel the disciples think Jesus has sent Judas out because he had the "common purse" to buy things for the Passover [chapter 13 verse 20].

            The first account we have of a Eucharist is from Paul in I Corinthians chapter 11 verses 23-27 and Paul makes it clear that he received this information from the Lord. Given the injunctions to the Jews about blood [Deuteronomy chapters 12 and 15 and verses 16 and 23] no Jew would ever contemplated drinking blood [even in a metaphorical sense]. This would therefore appear to be Paul's imagination/invention but this apparent divine observation indicates to Paul's proselytes that it is Christ Jesus who is breaking with Judaism [and not Paul]; thereby confirming to them that only his beliefs are valid as they have all come from the Lord. Likewise it also Paul who makes the first reference to Jesus as the sacrificed paschal lamb [I Corinthians chapter 5 verse 7]

            Therefore [and returning to the synoptics] it would appear that the meal they are describing has nothing to do with Passover and was just a meal; although the author of Mark [not being overly familiar with Jewish practices] made that connection, and Matthew and Luke included this Eucharist in their accounts.

            Nor can we know that Jesus was executed and buried before 15 Nissan. These gospel accounts are not dispassionate records of events as they occurred. These are narratives with a theological purpose.

            Of course if the gospel accounts of Jesus' actions are being deliberately played down and his offences were of a more serious nature, his execution may well have swiftly followed his appearance before Pilate. However, a crucifixion could be of some duration although severe scourging and the loss of blood could hasten death, as did the breaking of the victim's legs. Although of course Jesus [in his metaphorical guise of the paschal lamb] could not have any bones broken. This metaphor might also explain why the gospels have his death and burial occurring before his Jewish followers celebrate Passover - the lamb being slaughtered on the Day of Preparation. Although any contact with a dead body would have rendered those Jewish followers impure and would have necessitated purification..

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            No evidence whatever supports your assertion.
            The accounts provided by the four gospel writers contradict one another, that is self-evident.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Simple fact - there was no single set Passover festival in first century Judaea.
            Some attested evidence from the early first century for that statement would be appreciated.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Simple fact - there is no single set Passover festival today. You don't get to decide what the descendants of the Hebrews are permitted to call Passover.

            You don't get to decide how the Passover is to be celebrated. The timing of the meal is clearly stated: if your contra-factual assertion had any merit, the authors of the gospels would indeed have misnamed the meal.

            You would no doubt also declare that Passover cannot be celebrated in the second month. However, you don't get to decide when the Seder may be eaten.
            And nor do you.

            From here: https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...rent-night.htm

            The holidays are called moadim in Hebrew, from the word moed, which also means “appointment.” The Torah teaches us that the “appointment” for Passover is the fourteenth of the Jewish month of Nissan: that is when we must celebrate the Seder, and it cannot be postponed.[...] We can celebrate historical events on any date. But Passover is about experiencing liberation in our own lives, which can be done only on the actual date established by the Torah.


            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Oh - and no rite of Passover that I know of has the meal being eaten in the evening. The scriptures stipulate that it must be eaten at night.
            From Exodus 12 "They shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the lamb that same night; they shall eat it roasted over the fire with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            The Hebrew calendar day has an evening at its beginning, and the opening minutes to perhaps half an hour of the day are indeed twilight. The hours between three and five pm are not during twilight in anyone's language.
            That depends on when the decision as to when the sun is starting to set is made. To be eaten at night the meal has to betaken either following the slaughtering [as Exodus 12 states] or as you seem to be contending the following night. However, if that is indeed your contention then this meal was taken on the night of 15 Nissan [i.e. at the end of 15 Nissan] that means that according to the synoptics Jesus took part in that meal [and again according to those four gospels] the night after he had been executed and buried. You cannot have it both ways.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            The Samaritan Jews disagree.
            Are you now back to suggesting Jesus followed the Samaritan calendar? On what evidence from the texts? And if that was the case why does the gospel of John have his death on the eve of Passover according to the official calendar which was lunar or lunisolar? Again you cannot have it both ways.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            In the temple rite, the meal is eaten on the night (the first few hours) of the 15th.
            What is this Temple rite to which you repeatedly refer?

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            No rite of Passover that I am aware of has the meal being eaten in the morning.
            Then as repeatedly noted your gospel accounts are contradictory.

            If the synoptics are correct the Last Supper was the Passover meal which means that the the arrest, trial, death, and burial of Jesus all took place on Passover, i.e. 15 Nissan.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            That you disavow any historical value for the Bible shows an appalling disregard for facts.
            The books found in the Bible contain very little history although real personages, some real events, and of course real places are mentioned. However, the books contained in the New Testament are not historical records. They are gospels [i.e. theologically based narratives intended to inculcate faith and disseminate the beliefs of their various disparate Christian communities], epistles, and apocalyptic writing.

            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            An assertion based on no documented evidence whatever, though the possibility that there was no amnesty must be admitted on the basis of available evidence.
            Outside these four gospel accounts there is no attested evidence for such an amnesty. The gospel of John also has the Jews carrying out the crucifixion. Do you consider that also to be a historical "fact"?
            Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-03-2022, 06:17 AM.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              The four accounts are contradictory.


              I have "stated" nothing.
              Well, nothing of substance anyway.

              I put forward a suggestion that if the meal was eaten in the early hours of 14th it was not a Passover meal. However, that suggestion contradicts the three synoptic gospels which write of the day the disciples prepare for the Passover meal being the First Day of Unleavened Bread with both Mark and Luke including the comment "when the Passover lamb is sacrificed". Luke also writes that "When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you ".
              Samaritan Jews then, as now, disputed your interpretation. They celebrate the Passover during the opening hours of the fourteenth. So what makes you think that Jesus was required to conform with the temple rite for Passover?

              There are some who contend that the synoptic accounts do not indicate a Seder either. In fact none of the four gospel accounts mention the lamb, the bitter herbs, or the four cups of wine. In John's gospel the disciples think Jesus has sent Judas out because he had the "common purse" to buy things for the Passover [chapter 13 verse 20].
              Any number of stories circulate that declare the gospels wrong, some of them are even right on a scant few issues.

              The first account we have of a Eucharist is from Paul in I Corinthians chapter 11 verses 23-27 and Paul makes it clear that he received this information from the Lord. Given the injunctions to the Jews about blood [Deuteronomy chapters 12 and 15 and verses 16 and 23] no Jew would ever contemplated drinking blood [even in a metaphorical sense]. This would therefore appear to be Paul's imagination/invention but this apparent divine observation indicates to Paul's proselytes that it is Christ Jesus who is breaking with Judaism [and not Paul]; thereby confirming to them that only his beliefs are valid as they have all come from the Lord. Likewise it also Paul who makes the first reference to Jesus as the sacrificed paschal lamb [I Corinthians chapter 5 verse 7]
              According to the Old Testament, wine could be referred to as the blood of the grape. According to the Old Testament, the blood of animals was the blood of the Covenant. According to Jesus, wine was the blood of the New Covenant.

              Therefore [and returning to the synoptics] it would appear that the meal they are describing has nothing to do with Passover and was just a meal; although the author of Mark [not being overly familiar with Jewish practices] made that connection, and Matthew and Luke included this Eucharist in their accounts.
              Quite a powerful imagination needed to produce that story.

              Nor can we know that Jesus was executed and buried before 15 Nissan. These gospel accounts are not dispassionate records of events as they occurred. These are narratives with a theological purpose.
              The gospels all state that Jesus was buried toward the end of the day of Preparation; the date of the day of Preparation is the fourteenth of Nisan.

              Of course if the gospel accounts of Jesus' actions are being deliberately played down and his offences were of a more serious nature, his execution may well have swiftly followed his appearance before Pilate. However, a crucifixion could be of some duration although severe scourging and the loss of blood could hasten death, as did the breaking of the victim's legs. Although of course Jesus [in his metaphorical guise of the paschal lamb] could not have any bones broken. This metaphor might also explain why the gospels have his death and burial occurring before his Jewish followers celebrate Passover - the lamb being slaughtered on the Day of Preparation. Although any contact with a dead body would have rendered those Jewish followers impure and would have necessitated purification.
              I'm not sure that you have access to first century manuscripts with unimpeachable provenance to support that story. It seems to be the product of a hostile commentator with a theological agenda and who has no regard for fact.


              According to Luke, the day the that the Passover must be sacrificed (Nisan 14) started before the meal, and Jesus was buried just before the end of the Day of Preparation (Nisan 14). Now the arguments against Luke's explicit timeline may begin.

              The accounts provided by the four gospel writers contradict one another, that is self-evident.
              Some attested evidence from the early first century for that statement would be appreciated.

              And nor do you.

              From here: https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...rent-night.htm

              The holidays are called moadim in Hebrew, from the word moed, which also means “appointment.” The Torah teaches us that the “appointment” for Passover is the fourteenth of the Jewish month of Nissan: that is when we must celebrate the Seder, and it cannot be postponed.[...] We can celebrate historical events on any date. But Passover is about experiencing liberation in our own lives, which can be done only on the actual date established by the Torah.


              From Exodus 12 "They shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8 They shall eat the lamb that same night; they shall eat it roasted over the fire with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."
              What? Do you really believe that the Torah requires that the Passover can only be celebrated on the 14th day of the first month, and no other day is permitted for any reason?

              That depends on when the decision as to when the sun is starting to set is made. To be eaten at night the meal has to betaken either following the slaughtering [as Exodus 12 states] or as you seem to be contending the following night. However, if that is indeed your contention then this meal was taken on the night of 15 Nissan [i.e. at the end of 15 Nissan] that means that according to the synoptics Jesus took part in that meal [and again according to those four gospels] the night after he had been executed and buried. You cannot have it both ways.
              The new day is said to start when the third star becomes visible in the evening sky - that does tend to happen a little while before nightfall. The meal could not have been eaten on the 15th - Jesus was buried just before the start of the 15th. He was not crucified on a Sabbath - the 15th is a Sabbath.

              Are you now back to suggesting Jesus followed the Samaritan calendar? On what evidence from the texts? And if that was the case why does the gospel of John have his death on the eve of Passover according to the official calendar which was lunar or lunisolar? Again you cannot have it both ways.
              The gospels are quite clear in stating that it was at the time of the Passover as celebrated by the Jews. That does not say that Jesus celebrated the Passover in accordance with the Temple rite. There was no requirement that he do so. It would seem that while he accepted the Jewish calendar, he subscribed to the rite as described in the Torah (to which the Samaritans also subscribe).

              What is this Temple rite to which you repeatedly refer?
              That should have been clear enough from my earlier posts. The rite of Passover as endorsed and conducted by the Jerusalem temple's establishment. John called it the Passover of the Jews, i.e. not the Passover of the Essenes, nor that of the Samaritan Jews, nor necessarily of other possible sub-groups of the Hebrews.

              Then as repeatedly noted your gospel accounts are contradictory.
              On some issues, probably: on occasion, even certainly. With regard to the day that Jesus was crucified, you are free to keep preaching your little story to no avail; the gospels do not conflict.

              If the synoptics are correct the Last Supper was the Passover meal which means that the the arrest, trial, death, and burial of Jesus all took place on Passover, i.e. 15 Nissan.
              The gospels state that the Passover meal was eaten on the day of Preparation, identified by John as the Preparation of the Jews. The synoptic gospels also state that the Passover (lamb) was sacrificed on the day of Preparation; the Torah requirement that the lamb be sacrificed during the evening of the fourteenth does not stipulate which of the two evenings of the Hebrew day is intended (or so the orthodox Jewish claim has it; the Samaritan Jews and Jews of Beta Israel disagree). It is documented that there were at least three different Nisan 14ths, depending on the calendar in use, and that there would be only rare occasions when the three coincided.

              Outside these four gospel accounts there is no attested evidence for such an amnesty.
              I already stated that the gospels' claims on the matter of an amnesty seem unlikely to be correct.

              The gospel of John also has the Jews carrying out the crucifixion. Do you consider that also to be a historical "fact"?
              That is an interesting interpretation of John's account. The ambiguities can be said to show that the Jews crucified him. Of course, it does also show that the Romans were presiding over the crucifixion.
              Last edited by tabibito; 07-03-2022, 07:26 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Samaritan Jews then, as now, disputed your interpretation. They celebrate the Passover during the opening hours of the fourteenth.
                Not according Exodus or to present day Samaritan customs. The lamb is slaughtered at dusk[7.10 p,m. precisely] on the evening of 14 Nissan.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                So what makes you think that Jesus was required to conform with the temple rite for Passover?
                What makes you think he did not conform with accepted Jewish practice?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                According to the Old Testament, wine could be referred to as the blood of the grape.
                You really are running around with those goal-posts.

                You do realise that phrase is a metaphor? It is not literal

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                According to the Old Testament, the blood of animals was the blood of the Covenant.
                And being literally blood could not be consumed.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                According to Jesus, wine was the blood of the New Covenant.
                That is later Pauline theology and Paul is of course the first person to mention this Eucharistic rite.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Quite a powerful imagination needed to produce that story.
                It is a valid opinion given the disparity between the three synoptic gospels and John,

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The gospels all state that Jesus was buried toward the end of the day of Preparation; the date of the day of Preparation is the fourteenth of Nisan.
                Then either the synopics or John are wrong. if the synoptics are correct Jesus was executed on 15 Nissan. Alternatively, if this meal he took with his disciples was prior to dusk [i.e. at the end of ] 14 Nissan it was not a Passover meal. Which is highly probable and that the author of Mark simply got it wrong.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                I'm not sure that you have access to first century manuscripts with unimpeachable provenance to support that story. It seems to be the product of a hostile commentator with a theological agenda and who has no regard for fact.
                These four accounts are not attested historical fact. They are only facts insomuch as they appear in the texts. In the same manner that Hermione Granger is a fact insofar as her character appears in the texts of the Harry Potter books.

                One might also ask where is your access to first century MSS "with unimpeachable provenance"?

                As to the proscriptions surrounding dead bodies those are made quite clear in the Numbers chapter 19 verses 11-14.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                According to Luke, the day the that the Passover must be sacrificed (Nisan 14) started before the meal, and Jesus was buried just before the end of the Day of Preparation (Nisan 14).
                All three synoptic gospels refer to it being the First Day of Unleavened Bread when the disciples ask Jesus where he wants to celebrate the Passover.

                Mark chapter 14 verse 12 Καὶ τῇ πρώτῃ ἡμέρᾳ τῶν ἀζύμων, ὅτε τὸ πάσχα ἔθυον, λέγουσιν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ ποῦ θέλεις

                Matthew chapter 26 verse 17 Τῇ δὲ πρώτῃ τῶν ἀζύμων προσῆλθον οἱ μαθηταὶ τῷ Ἰησοῦ λέγοντες ποῦ θέλει ς ἑτοιμάσωμέν σοι φαγεῖν τὸ πάσχα;

                Luke chapter 22 verse 7 Ἦλθεν δὲ ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ἀζύμων, ἐν ᾗ ἔδει θύεσθαι τὸ πάσχα

                The day the lamb is slaughtered is the Day of Preparation [14 Nissan] and the meal takes place after dusk at the end of that day and into the beginning of 15 Nissan.

                Alternatively, if you are contending that the meal was taken in the early hours at the beginning of 14 Nissan it was not a Passover meal. And more to the point from where did they get their paschal lamb?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                What? Do you really believe that the Torah requires that the Passover can only be celebrated on the 14th day of the first month, and no other day is permitted for any reason?
                The Torah is quite clear as to the day and season on which the Passover must take place.

                https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...f-Passover.htm

                Therefore the Torah commands us,1 “Guard the month of spring, and make [then] the Passover offering.” This is a directive to the Sanhedrin (Rabbinical Supreme Court) to constantly adjust the calendar to ensure that Nissan, the month of the holiday of Passover, always falls during the spring season. This is accomplished through thirteen-month “leap years” which were added to the calendar approximately once every three years. During these years, a second month of Adar was added to the calendar.

                While the Sanhedrin presided in Jerusalem, there was no set calendar. They would evaluate every year to determine whether it should be declared a leap year.

                Several factors were considered in the course of their deliberations. The primary factor, which overrode all others, was the spring equinox. If the spring equinox would fall later than the first half of Nissan (i.e., on the 16th or later), then the year was automatically declared to be a leap year.

                However, it wasn’t enough for Passover to fall after the equinox, when it was “officially” spring; spring-like conditions needed to be evidenced. If in the land of Israel the barley2 had not yet ripened, and the trees were not yet blossoming with seasonal fruit—that, too, was sufficient reason to delay Nissan by adding a second month of Adar. Spring should be felt; it should be bright and green.


                https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...-Explained.htm

                However, it is also specified in the Torah that Passover must always be celebrated in the spring time (<a href="https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/preSearch.cfm?Criteria=Deut.+16.1&amp;t=NIV" target="BLB_NW" rel="NIV.Deut.16.1" class="BLBST_a" style="white-space: nowrap;">Deut. 16:1</a>) and Sukkot during autumn (ibid.16:12).

                In order for the festivals to retain their position relative to the seasons, an adjustment must be made to enable the lunar calendar to maintain harmony with the solar cycle, and indeed an extraordinary provision is taken. In the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 19th year of every 19 year cycle an entire month is added before the month in which Passover falls - not just a day.1 Such a year is called "shana m'uberret" - literally, "a pregnant year."


                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The new day is said to start when the third star becomes visible in the evening sky - that does tend to happen a little while before nightfall.
                And given the situation in early first century Judaism the meal the synoptics allege was a Passover would have been taken after that at the end of 14 Nissan and into the beginning of 15 Nissan. The Hebrew in Exodus translates as evening, night, sunset.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The meal could not have been eaten on the 15th - Jesus was buried just before the start of the 15th. He was not crucified on a Sabbath - the 15th is a Sabbath.
                Then explain the timeline for 14 Nissan if the meal was a Passover meal eaten after dusk [i.e. at the end of/after 14 Nissan].

                If those synoptic accounts record a Passover meal - taken after dusk [i.e. at the close of 14 Nissan] Jesus' death occurs on 15 Nissan. Otherwise the meal described by all three synoptic authors cannot have been a Passover meal.

                That is the contradiction between the three synoptic accounts and John.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The gospels are quite clear in stating that it was at the time of the Passover as celebrated by the Jews
                And that would be after dusk at the end of 14 Nissan as laid down in the Torah.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                That does not say that Jesus celebrated the Passover in accordance with the Temple rite.
                Despite frequent requests to do so you have as yet not identified precisely what this "Temple rite" to which you repeatedly refer constituted. In Deuteronomy chapter 16 the Jewish people are commanded to offer their Passover sacrifice at a site on which Yahweh has made a dwelling for himself. In the early first century CE that site was the Temple in Jerusalem that contained the Holy of Holies. The Torah set the dates and laws surrounding the paschal feast and both Philo and Josephus refer to Jewish practise in the first century CE.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                There was no requirement that he do so.
                Why was there no requirement for an observant Jew to follow the Mosaic Law?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                It would seem that while he accepted the Jewish calendar, he subscribed to the rite as described in the Torah (to which the Samaritans also subscribe).
                Precisely. At the end of 14 Nissan following the slaughter of the paschal lamb which for Jews, unlike Samaritans, would have taken place in the Temple.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                That should have been clear enough from my earlier posts.
                Alas not. Your replies have rambled hither and thither as you move those goal-posts around as the fancy takes you.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The rite of Passover as endorsed and conducted by the Jerusalem temple's establishment. John called it the Passover of the Jews, i.e. not the Passover of the Essenes, nor that of the Samaritan Jews, nor necessarily of other possible sub-groups of the Hebrews.
                If Jesus had this Passover meal in the early hours of the 14 Nissan as you seem to be suggesting, firstly it was not a Passover meal, and secondly who slaughtered the lamb? It was certainly not offered in the Temple as a paschal sacrifice.

                And who are these "possible sub-groups of the Hebrews" to whom you refer?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                With regard to the day that Jesus was crucified, you are free to keep preaching your little story to no avail; the gospels do not conflict.
                I am not "preaching" anything. I am simply pointing that these four accounts contradict one another concerning this apparent Passover meal and your attempts to reconcile them repeatedly fail.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                The gospels state that the Passover meal was eaten on the day of Preparation
                The three synoptic accounts do not as my three quotes from those gospels affirm. Mark and Matthew refer to the first Day of Unleavened Bread and Luke refers to the Day of Unleavened Bread and all three confuse that with the Day of Preparation which is the day on which the paschal lamb is sacrificed.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                , identified by John as the Preparation of the Jews.
                John's account may be considered as probably the more likely.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The synoptic gospels also state that the Passover (lamb) was sacrificed on the day of Preparation;
                No they do not as I have shown.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                the Torah requirement that the lamb be sacrificed during the evening of the fourteenth does not stipulate which of the two evenings of the Hebrew day is intended (or so the orthodox Jewish claim has it; the Samaritan Jews and Jews of Beta Israel disagree).
                A brief internet search will prove that contention erroneous. The Ethiopic Jews slaughter their lamb on the evening of 14 Nissan as do the Samaritans.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                It is documented that there were at least three different Nisan 14ths, depending on the calendar in use, and that there would be only rare occasions when the three coincided.
                Could you cite the three calendars being used in the early first century CE in Judaea?

                And what textual evidence do you have from the four canonical gospels that support your contention that Jesus and his disciples were all using a different calendar from the one that John uses?
                Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-04-2022, 12:24 PM.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Not according Exodus or to present day Samaritan customs. The lamb is slaughtered at dusk[7.10 p,m. precisely] on the evening of 14 Nissan.
                  And the meal is eaten on the night of the fourteenth, a few hours after the sacrifice. The sacrifice is conducted at dusk, on the fourteenth, as the day "dawns" i.e. at the start of the day.

                  What makes you think he did not conform with accepted Jewish practice?
                  In the first century here was no single all encompassing rule for Passover beyond the requirement that the sacrifice be conducted on the evening of the fourteenth. Quite clearly Luke's account shows that the meal was eaten on the fourteenth (the day that the Passover must be sacrificed), and Jesus was buried on the fourteenth (the day of Preparation). According to Luke, the meal was eaten on the same day that Christ was buried. That is glaringly, explicitly, obvious.

                  You do realise that phrase is a metaphor? It is not literal

                  And being literally blood could not be consumed.
                  Which was not true of the "blood" of the grape. Even more, the wine is the blood of the new covenant, not Jesus' own blood - not even metaphorically.

                  It is a valid opinion given the disparity between the three synoptic gospels and John,

                  Then either the synopics or John are wrong. if the synoptics are correct Jesus was executed on 15 Nissan. Alternatively, if this meal he took with his disciples was prior to dusk [i.e. at the end of ] 14 Nissan it was not a Passover meal. Which is highly probable and that the author of Mark simply got it wrong.
                  The meal was eaten at night according to the records of the gospels. I am not going to accept a bare assertion based on the flawed premise that only one rite for Passover was permitted.

                  As to the proscriptions surrounding dead bodies those are made quite clear in the Numbers chapter 19 verses 11-14.
                  the ritual uncleanliness thus arising lasted only until the end of the day.

                  The day the lamb is slaughtered is the Day of Preparation [14 Nissan] and the meal takes place after dusk at the end of that day and into the beginning of 15 Nissan.
                  According to the Torah, the whole rite of Passover is to be conducted on the fourteenth. In the Torah, the fourteenth is not called the day of Preparation, as it is termed in the temple rite. In the Torah the fourteenth is not termed the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread, as it is in the temple rite. In the Torah, the fourteenth is termed the day of Passover, and the fifteenth is termed the first day of unleavened bread.

                  Alternatively, if you are contending that the meal was taken in the early hours at the beginning of 14 Nissan it was not a Passover meal. And more to the point from where did they get their paschal lamb?
                  Adherents of the temple rite did not have their meal on the night of the fourteenth - not everyone subscribed to the temple rite. That much is obvious from the gospel accounts.

                  The Torah is quite clear as to the day and season on which the Passover must take place.
                  Yes, it is: the whole rite of Passover must be conducted on the fourteenth of the first month, except by those who are disqualified by ritual uncleanness (etc) - they may celebrate the Passover on the fourteenth (the whole rite must be celebrated on the fourteenth) of the second month.

                  And given the situation in early first century Judaism the meal the synoptics allege was a Passover would have been taken after that on 14 Nissan and into the beginning of 15 Nissan. The Hebrew in Exodus translates as evening, night, sunset.
                  No argument. The Jews of the first century conducted the sacrifice in broad daylight, starting around 3pm, instead of at dusk. Of course, if they had conducted the sacrifice at end of day dusk, they would have wound up conducting the sacrifice on the fifteenth.

                  Then explain the timeline for 14 Nissan if the meal was a Passover meal eaten after dusk [i.e. at the end of/after 14 Nissan].
                  A time line for the meal being eaten after the fourteenth can't be shown. The timeline for the meal being eaten on the night of the fourteenth is straightforward. You complained when I posted it.

                  If those synoptic accounts record a Passover meal - taken after dusk i.e. at the close of 14 Nissan FALSE] Jesus' death occurs on 15 Nissan. Otherwise the meal described by all three synoptic authors cannot have been a Passover meal.
                  And the fifteenth is a Sabbath. No trials, no shopping for linen cloth (or anything else), no executions permitted. There is nothing to prevent a Passover sacrifice during dusk at the start of the fourteenth day - in fact, 3pm to 5pm is nothing like dusk. If your claim that the Passover could not be eaten during the night of the fourteenth, shortly after the start of the calendar day, that contra-factual claim would show only that the Synoptics misidentified the meal. There would still be no conflict with John; the fourteenth is clearly stipulated by Luke, and Luke is not in conflict with Matthew and Mark.

                  That is the contradiction between the three synoptic accounts and John.
                  The gospels themselves show no conflict

                  And that would be after dusk at the end of 14 Nissan as laid down in the Torah.
                  After dusk at the end of the fourteenth is dusk at the start of the fifteenth.

                  Despite frequent requests to do so you have as yet not identified precisely what this "Temple rite" to which you repeatedly refer constituted.
                  Garbage. I stated it clearly. But your challenge might be an indication of why you can't understand what the Bible records show so clearly.

                  In Deuteronomy chapter 16 the Jewish people are commanded to offer their Passover sacrifice at a site on which Yahweh has made a dwelling for himself. In the early first century CE that site was the Temple in Jerusalem that contained the Holy of Holies. The Torah set the dates and laws surrounding the paschal feast and both Philo and Josephus refer to Jewish practise in the first century CE.
                  In the Jewish Torah it is said to be Jerusalem; not so in the Samaritan Torah.

                  Why was there no requirement for an observant Jew to follow the Mosaic Law?
                  In the temple rite, the Passover is sacrificed during broad daylight. How does that conform with the rite described in the Torah? An observant Jew might easily decide to follow the Torah rite.

                  Precisely. At the end of 14 Nissan following the slaughter of the paschal lamb which for Jews, unlike Samaritans, would have taken place in the Temple.
                  Which Jews are you referring to? The Herodians perhaps? no? Perhaps the Essenes? no? Jews subscribing to the temple rite?

                  Alas not. Your replies have rambled hither and thither as you move those goal-posts around as the fancy takes you.
                  You have a fertile imagination. My posts have been consistent.

                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                  The rite of Passover as endorsed and conducted by the Jerusalem temple's establishment. John called it the Passover of the Jews, i.e. not the Passover of the Essenes, nor that of the Samaritan Jews, nor necessarily of other possible sub-groups of the Hebrews.
                  If Jesus had this Passover meal in the early hours of the 14 Nissan as you seem to be suggesting, firstly it was not a Passover meal, and secondly who slaughtered the lamb? It was certainly not offered in the Temple as a paschal sacrifice.
                  I do not "seem to be suggesting" it - I am stating it as the patently obvious fact for anyone who reads the gospel records with their own eyes rather than with commentators' ink.

                  And who are these "possible sub-groups of the Hebrews" to whom you refer?
                  Essenes, Samaritan Jews (already stated, and the differences are documented), possibly Herodians, possibly at least some of the Pharisees.

                  I am not "preaching" anything. I am simply pointing that these four accounts contradict one another concerning this apparent Passover meal and your attempts to reconcile them repeatedly fail.
                  You are preaching: "Behold the Bible is false." You can claim all you like that I am trying to reconcile the gospel records, but those records themselves show to any dispassionate observer that the claims made in support of this particular "contradiction" are bulldust.

                  The three synoptic accounts do not as my three quotes from those gospels affirm. Mark and Matthew refer to the first Day of Unleavened Bread and Luke refers to the Day of Unleavened Bread and all three confuse that with the Day of Preparation which is the day on which the paschal lamb is sacrificed.
                  Each and every one of the synoptic gospels declare that Jesus was buried on the fourteenth (the day before the Sabbath, the day of preparation). The same claim that John makes.

                  Matthew: on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together with Pilate (that would be just after 6pm on the 15th).
                  Mark: When evening had already come, because it was the preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath (the Sabbath was the 15th).
                  Luke: It was the Preparation day, and the Sabbath was about to begin. (the 14th is not a Sabbath).

                  John's account may be considered as probably the more likely.
                  More likely than the synoptics despite the fact that they say the same? Hardly.

                  The synoptic gospels also state that the Passover (lamb) was sacrificed on the day of Preparation;

                  No they do not as I have shown.
                  You have got to be joking - the day that the Passover must be sacrificed is the "Day of Preparation" and the "First Day of Unleaveneds" in the temple rite. In later times, the term, "the Day of Preparation," was dropped and the day was then termed "Passover Eve." In the Torah, the first day of Unleaveneds is the day after Passover, and the Passover is the 14th of Nisan. Luke is plain enough that Passover Eve started before the meal was eaten, and that Jesus was buried at the end of the same day.

                  Was Jesus Crucified On Passover Or The Day Before?

                  According to all four Gospels, the crucifixion took place within about a day of Passover, and all four Gospels agree that Jesus died a few hours before the beginning of the Jewish Sabbath, i.e., the day of Passover. In other words, he died before nightfall on a Friday (Matt 27:62; 28:1; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31, 42).



                  Even a Jewish site can get that much right. Jesus died on Passover Eve.

                  Could you cite the three calendars being used in the early first century CE in Judaea?
                  Already did that: The Essene calendar, the Jewish calendar, the Samaritan calendar. In addition the Roman and Egyptian calendars, though they are irrelevant to liturgical matters.

                  And what textual evidence do you have from the four canonical gospels that support your contention that Jesus and his disciples were all using a different calendar from the one that John uses?
                  They all set the timing of the events according to the temple calendar. The actual sacrifice and eating of the meal are not consonant with the temple rite.
                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-04-2022, 02:58 PM.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                  "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Not according Exodus or to present day Samaritan customs. The lamb is slaughtered at dusk[7.10 p,m. precisely] on the evening of 14 Nissan.
                    Note also - 7:10 pm at the end of the fourteenth isn't the fourteenth anymore, it is the fifteenth. 7:10 pm (ie 7 hours 10 minutes p (post = after) m (meridian = midday)) can only be the fourteenth if it is 7 hours 10 minutes after midday on the thirteenth.

                    Wikipedia

                    {{Temple}} Passover, also called Pesach (/ˈpɛsɑːx, ˈpeɪ-/;[2]Biblical Hebrew: חַג הַפֶּסַח, romanized: Ḥag haPesaḥ), is a major Jewish holiday that celebrates the exodus of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt,[3] which occurs on the 15th day of the Hebrew month of Nisan

                    {{Torah}} In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at dusk is the LORD's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread

                    Same article for both
                    Last edited by tabibito; 07-04-2022, 04:15 PM.
                    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                    Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                    "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      And the meal is eaten on the night of the fourteenth, a few hours after the sacrifice.
                      It is eaten after dark at the end of 14th.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The sacrifice is conducted at dusk, on the fourteenth, as the day "dawns" i.e. at the start of the day.
                      From where you do obtain the impression that dusk - twilight in Exodus - translated as evening, night, refers to the beginning of the day?

                      https://www.chabad.org/parshah/artic...h/Twilight.htm

                      According to Torah law, the calendar day runs from nightfall to nightfall; thus, Shabbat begins Friday evening at nightfall and ends at nightfall on Saturday night. Nightfall is when the light of day has faded to the point that three middle-sized stars are visible in the sky. The halachists calculate this to be the point at which the sun has descended 5.9 degrees below the horizon; this occurs approximately thirty minutes after sunset, depending on the location and the time of year.

                      Nightfall, however, marks only the point at which the night—and the next calendar day—is certain to have begun. Between sunset and nightfall is the period defined as twilight, a time period with laws and rules of its own. The previous day has ended (or perhaps ended), yet the following day has not yet (or perhaps not yet) commenced.

                      Talmudic and halachic literature present three definitions of twilight:

                      a) It is a period that is possibly day, possibly night. According to this definition, the concept of twilight is wholly a product of our ignorance of the precise point at which one day ends and the next begins. Nevertheless, our ignorance results in special laws that apply to this period.

                      b) It is an admixture of day and night: a time-period in which day and night overlap, so that it possesses both qualities.

                      c) It is neither day nor night, but an entity of its own, which effects the transition from day to night and from one day to the next.


                      Also from the same site:

                      https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...Jewish-Day.htm

                      While a day starts and ends at nightfall, the exact moment when night — and the next calendar date — begins is not clear.

                      The twilight period, from sunset ("shekiah") until three stars are visible in the sky ("tzeit hakochavim"), is an "iffy" time period, known as "bein hashmashot." Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall.


                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      In the first century here was no single all encompassing rule for Passover beyond the requirement that the sacrifice be conducted on the evening of the fourteenth.
                      As the 14th came to an end. Not when it started.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Quite clearly Luke's account shows that the meal was eaten on the fourteenth (the day that the Passover must be sacrificed), and Jesus was buried on the fourteenth (the day of Preparation). According to Luke, the meal was eaten on the same day that Christ was buried. That is glaringly, explicitly, obvious.
                      Then the meal that Jesus shared with his disciples as the three synoptics describe it could not have taken place as 14 Nissan ended. In other words it was not a Passover meal.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Which was not true of the "blood" of the grape.
                      That is a metaphor. It is not literal

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      The meal was eaten at night according to the records of the gospels.
                      Again you seem to be contending that "night" equalled the early hours of the 14th. A Jewish day runs from nightfall to nightfall. Twilight is a particularly difficult period to make absolute comments upon as the links above indicate.

                      If the synoptic meal was eaten at night, it was eaten after sunset on 14 Nissan i.e. as 14 goes into 15 Nissan.

                      So if you are contending that this synoptic Passover was eaten after dark as 13th ended and the "dawn" of 14th [i.e. the beginning of the Jewish day 14 Nissan] it was not a Passover meal.

                      However, if the synoptics are correct and this was a meal taken at night as 14th becomes 15 Nissan as the Torah states, then Jesus cannot been executed and buried on 14 Nissan.

                      Nor can it be entirely ruled out that this execution did take place during the festival but after 15 Nissan. Given that the Sanhedrin could not meet during a holiday, Caiaphas may have questioned Jesus in private, realised the political nature of his actions and which were therefore outside his jurisdiction and handed him over to the governing authority.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      I am not going to accept a bare assertion based on the flawed premise that only one rite for Passover was permitted.
                      Of course you are not because you cannot countenance the fact that these four gospel accounts do not harmonise. Hence your attempt to suggest that sacrifices took place as 13th becomes 14th Nissan which is the only way by which this synoptic Passover meal could have occurred.

                      Moreover, where is the attested evidence that Jews could slaughter a paschal lamb and celebrate Passover in the early hours of 14 Nissan as opposed to after dark at the end of 14 Nissan?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      the ritual uncleanliness thus arising lasted only until the end of the day.
                      Read Numbers chapter 19 verse 11. "Those who touch the dead body of any human being shall be unclean seven days."

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      According to the Torah, the whole rite of Passover is to be conducted on the fourteenth.
                      The sacrifice is offered at twilight at the end of the day of 14 Nissan and the Passover follows the end of 14th. It is when, in the hours of darkness, the Lord passed over.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      In the Torah, the fourteenth is not called the day of Preparation, as it is termed in the temple rite. In the Torah the fourteenth is not termed the first day of the feast of Unleavened bread, as it is in the temple rite. In the Torah, the fourteenth is termed the day of Passover,
                      The 14th is when the sacrifice is made. The Passover follows in the hours of darkness after that. The Torah makes that quite clear. The lamb is to be sacrificed at twilight on 14 Nissan, the blood smeared on lintels, and then after dark the meal is hastily eaten in the dark hours at the beginnng of 15th as Yahweh passed over in those hours of darkness. In Exodus the Jews are told to be ready to leave [shoes on, staffs, belts etc] .

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      and the fifteenth is termed the first day of unleavened bread.
                      Then do explain why all three synoptic authors refer to it being the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark refer to it as the First Day] upon which the disciples ask Jesus where he wants to celebrate Passover?

                      According to what you have just written this Passover meal which both Matthew and Mark later describe as taking place in the evening [ὀψίας] was going to be celebrated at the end of 15 Nissan. That would put the arrest and all that followed into the early hours and later in to the day of 16 Nissan.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Adherents of the temple rite did not have their meal on the night of the fourteenth - not everyone subscribed to the temple rite.
                      Precisely. Everyone took their meal at the end of 14 Nissan after dark fell.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Yes, it is: the whole rite of Passover must be conducted on the fourteenth of the first month,
                      No it is not. The lamb is sacrificed at twilight [i.e. towards the end of the 14th day] and the meal is eaten after dark, i.e. at the beginning of the next day [15 Nissan].

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      No argument. The Jews of the first century conducted the sacrifice in broad daylight, starting around 3pm, instead of at dusk.
                      That depends on when the sun was deemed to be starting set. As that link above notes, twilight has its own complicated aspects.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      A time line for the meal being eaten after the fourteenth can't be shown.
                      Of course it cannot. Insofar as the synoptic accounts of this meal are concerned, either it was taken in the early hours of darkness on 14 Nissan in which case it was not a Passover meal, or else it was taken at the prescribed time at the end of the 14th day and after dark into the 15th. And that would completely refute the later chapters where the three synoptic writers have Jesus dying on the Day of Preparation [i.e. before 15 Nissan].

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      And the fifteenth is a Sabbath. No trials, no shopping for linen cloth (or anything else), no executions permitted.
                      I do not think a Jewish festival would have bothered the Roman authorities if three convicted provincial lowly humilores needed executing. However, if the nature of the offences was more serious than those with which we are presented in the four gospels, then a summary execution following interrogation would most probably have gone ahead within hours.

                      However, and as I have previously noted we cannot assume that Jesus' death necessarily followed so quickly that it neatly permitted the body to be buried before the end of that day [i.e. before nightfall]. And given that all four gospels have him dying as the lambs are being slaughtered for the Passover has a distinct theological symbolism given that Paul has in his earlier writings compared Jesus Christ with the paschal lamb.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      There is nothing to prevent a Passover sacrifice during dusk at the start of the fourteenth day - in fact, 3pm to 5pm is nothing like dusk.
                      That depends on when the sun is deemed to be setting. I would also add that you are superimposing a present day division of hours back to the early first century. What we now term 3 p.m - 5 p.m. does not automatically correlate with the division of the day at that time

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      If your claim that the Passover could not be eaten during the night of the fourteenth, shortly after the start of the calendar day, that contra-factual claim would show only that the Synoptics misidentified the meal.
                      That is the point I have been making. There is a contradiction between this Passover meal to which all three synoptics refer, and the account in John as well as later chapters in the three synoptics.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      There would still be no conflict with John; the fourteenth is clearly stipulated by Luke, and Luke is not in conflict with Matthew and Mark.
                      How can the three synoptic writers have the disciples asking Jesus where he wants to celebrate Passover which all three writers state was a question made on the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark refer to the First Day]; a day incidentally that you have acknowledged begins on 15 Nissan and yet a few chapters later those same authors have Jesus dead and buried on the day of Preparation?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The gospels themselves show no conflict.
                      If they show no conflict you should not have any difficulty answering the above question. I have even colourised it for you!

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      After dusk at the end of the fourteenth is dusk at the start of the fifteenth.
                      No at nightfall at the end of 14th is the start of 15th. Twilight has its own somewhat complicated position.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Garbage. I stated it clearly. But your challenge might be an indication of why you can't understand what the Bible records show so clearly.
                      The "Bible records" as you amusingly refer to them, are contradictory even within the texts of the individual synoptic writers

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      In the Jewish Torah it is said to be Jerusalem; not so in the Samaritan Torah.
                      Are you back to alleging Jesus was a Samaritan?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      In the temple rite, the Passover is sacrificed during broad daylight.
                      Again you are retrojecting our present division of the hours of the day back to a society some two thousand years ago .

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Which Jews are you referring to? The Herodians perhaps? no? Perhaps the Essenes? no? Jews subscribing to the temple rite?
                      According to Luke Herod Antipas was in Jerusalem for Passover. The Essene calendar was 364 days by which all festivals of the year fell on the same day of the week. Hence Passover always fell on the day that we [today] would call a Wednesday. However, it was still the fifteenth day of the first month by their solar calendar. As you have dismissed the notion that Jesus was an Essene and if we assume he was not a Samaritan, what calendar was he using?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      You have a fertile imagination. My posts have been consistent.
                      You have introduced various suggestions and made erroneous statements in an attempt to reconcile these four contradictory gospel accounts of the last meal Jesus apparently took with his disciples. A meal that all three synoptic writers refer to as a Passover meal.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      I do not "seem to be suggesting" it - I am stating it as the patently obvious fact for anyone who reads the gospel records with their own eyes rather than with commentators' ink.
                      So tell me how did the disciples acquire a paschal lamb if this meal was taken at the beginning [i.e. in the dark early hours] of 14 Nissan?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Essenes, Samaritan Jews (already stated, and the differences are documented), possibly Herodians, possibly at least some of the Pharisees.
                      And where is the attested historical evidence that some Pharisees in the early first century CE did not follow the lunisolar calendar?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      You are preaching: "Behold the Bible is false."
                      This exchange is not about "the Bible", it is dealing with certain verses found in all three synoptic gospels concerning a Passover meal and how they contradict what we are told in John, and indeed what the same three synoptic gospels also write about the death and burial of Jesus.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      You can claim all you like that I am trying to reconcile the gospel records, but those records themselves show to any dispassionate observer that the claims made in support of this particular "contradiction" are bulldust.
                      The meal the synoptic writers describe cannot have been a Passover meal. Moreover they cannot have been asking Jesus where he wanted to celebrate Passover on the Day of Unleavened Bread [i.e. as you have acknowledged 15 Nissan] if, as those writers and John, later allege, Jesus was dead and buried prior to 15 Nissan before the end of 14 Nissan.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Each and every one of the synoptic gospels declare that Jesus was buried on the fourteenth (the day before the Sabbath, the day of preparation). The same claim that John makes.
                      Then explain why all three synoptics have the disciples asking Jesus on the Day of Unleavened Bread [a day you have acknowledged begins on 15 Nissan] where he wants to spend Passover? And how do those same three synoptic writers later have Jesus dead and buried on the Day of Preparation [i.e. 14 Nissan]?

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      More likely than the synoptics despite the fact that they say the same? Hardly.

                      The synoptic gospels also state that the Passover (lamb) was sacrificed on the day of Preparation;
                      Mark: "On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed"
                      Luke: "Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed"
                      Matthew: "On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where do you want us to make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

                      All three are referring to a day [that you have acknowledged] commences on 15 Nissan.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Already did that: The Essene calendar, the Jewish calendar, the Samaritan calendar. In addition the Roman and Egyptian calendars, though they are irrelevant to liturgical matters.
                      And those have been rejected. So if we accept John's account as being the most likely, which calendar was Jesus following in order for him to enjoy a Passover meal with his disciples, as the three synoptic accounts have it?

                      That meal cannot have been at night at the end of 14 Nissan because according to later chapters in the synoptics Jesus was dead before the Passover.

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      They all set the timing of the events according to the temple calendar.
                      Are you contending all four gospels are wrong?

                      At one moment you try and contend that this synoptic meal was indeed a Passover meal, despite the fact that Passover commences after the end of 14 Nissan and 15 Nissan begins and now you state that all four accounts set "the timing of the events according to the temple calendar".

                      Something has to be amiss.


                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The actual sacrifice and eating of the meal are not consonant with the temple rite.
                      On what textual evidence, given that you have just written that "They all set the timing of the events according to the temple calendar"?
                      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-05-2022, 10:49 AM.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        It is eaten after dark at the end of 14th.

                        From where you do obtain the impression that dusk - twilight in Exodus - translated as evening, night, refers to the beginning of the day?
                        Luke said that the meal was eaten on the day that the lamb must be sacrificed and Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.
                        The day that the lamb must be sacrificed on the fourteenth of Nisan. The Day of Preparation is the fourteenth of Nisan.
                        According to Luke, the meal was eaten and Jesus was interred on the same day.

                        The meal was eaten at night on the day that the lamb was sacrificed, followed by the trial sentence and execution during daylight hours.
                        According to the Hebrew calendar, the day begins with evening, then night, then daylight hours.

                        Wriggle all you will - the hook is set.

                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Luke said that the meal was eaten on the day that the lamb must be sacrificed and Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.
                          The day that the lamb must be sacrificed on the fourteenth of Nisan. The Day of Preparation is the fourteenth of Nisan.
                          According to Luke, the meal was eaten and Jesus was interred on the same day.

                          The meal was eaten at night on the day that the lamb was sacrificed, followed by the trial sentence and execution during daylight hours.
                          According to the Hebrew calendar, the day begins with evening, then night, then daylight hours.

                          Wriggle all you will - the hook is set.
                          So you do not want to address those contradictions in the synoptics. I can understand why!

                          I am not wriggling I am using the texts as they have come down to us to illustrate the contradictions in them. That you decline to address my points indicates it is you who are having difficulties.

                          In one chapter of each of the the three synoptics the writers have the disciples asking Jesus where he wants to celebrate Passover and each writer describes that day as the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark refer to it as the First Day] and that is a day you have acknowledged begins on 15 Nissan.



                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          In the Torah, the fourteenth is termed the day of Passover, and the fifteenth is termed the first day of unleavened bread.

                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread


                          And a few chapters later each has Jesus being dead and buried on the 14th Nissan.
                          Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-05-2022, 11:21 AM.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            So you do not want to address those contradictions in the synoptics.
                            Hardly - rehashing the arguments that have already been addressed and confuted time and again is simply pointless. However, there are a couple of points that I don't recall fielding before:

                            How can the three synoptic writers have the disciples asking Jesus where he wants to celebrate Passover which all three writers state was a question made on the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark refer to the First Day]; a day incidentally that you have acknowledged begins on 15 Nissan and yet a few chapters later those same authors have Jesus dead and buried on the day of Preparation?
                            The explicit statements of each of the gospel writers that Jesus was buried at the end of the day of preparation interferes with interpretations (of other statements) that try to make it seem that Jesus wasn't interred on the day of Preparation. It is also true that the Jews of today identify the first day of unleavened bread as Passover - the fourteenth no longer being known by that term, but relegated to "Passover Eve." Nonetheless, the Jews of today do not identify Passover as the fourteenth, which the Torah does, but as the fifteenth. It is not possible to pretend that the Jews of today have preserved the terminology of the Torah.

                            Luke, for example, identifies the first day of the Festival of Unleavened bread as the Passover, on the first day of which the Passover must be sacrificed. This objection is actually reasonable. Not one of the synoptics' authors noticed the error or bothered to amend it? The explanation is somewhat more realistic. Some difference in the identification of the feast was in play, encompassing Passover in some quarters. There is no need to simply accept what is apparent from the gospel records though, that Passover and the Feast of Unleavened bread might have been grouped together as a single "Feast of Unleavened Bread":-

                            Rabbi Dr Raymond Apple
                            Post-Destruction authors evidence the use of this name. Josephus says, “The feast of unleavened bread… is by the Jews called the Passover” (Jewish Wars, II:1:3). The Gospel of Luke speaks of “the feast of unleavened bread, which is called the Passover” (22:1).


                            (no surprise that he considers Luke to be a "post destruction" author.)


                            All of these errors of mine that you keep mentioning - aside from the mistake about the length of time that a person is unclean after touching a corpse, what are they?

                            However, and as I have previously noted we cannot assume that Jesus' death necessarily followed so quickly that it neatly permitted the body to be buried before the end of that day [i.e. before nightfall]. And given that all four gospels have him dying as the lambs are being slaughtered for the Passover has a distinct theological symbolism given that Paul has in his earlier writings compared Jesus Christ with the paschal lamb.
                            One word: takotsubo.

                            https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsu...tsubo-syndrome

                            Takotsubo syndrome is a sudden and acute form of heart failure. Symptoms can be similar to a heart attack. It is also known as takotsubo cardiomyopathy, broken heart syndrome, acute stress induced cardiomyopathy, and apical ballooning. The heart muscle becomes suddenly weakened or ‘stunned’ and the left ventricle, one of the heart’s chambers, changes shape. This affects the heart’s ability to pump blood.

                            It’s difficult to put a figure on how many people are affected, because it’s only been widely recognised in the last few years. It’s thought of as being rare, though our data suggests it could represent six to seven per cent of all presumed heart attacks admitted through a cardiology department. Most people recover, but a small minority of cases (about four per cent) die in hospital.


                            Of course, opportunity for recovery might be hampered a bit when a person is hanging from a cross.

                            That is a metaphor. It is not literal
                            I wrote "Which was not true of the "blood" of the grape." Blood is enclosed in quotes, which indicates that it should not be considered to be literally blood.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 07-05-2022, 12:45 PM.
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                            Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                            "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              Hardly - rehashing the arguments that have already been addressed and confuted time and again is simply pointless. However, there are a couple of points that I don't recall fielding before:
                              Wriggle at will.

                              You have stated that:

                              In the Torah, the fourteenth is termed the day of Passover, and the fifteenth is termed the first day of unleavened bread.


                              And

                              And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread.


                              The links I provided briefly mentioned that the period referred to as twilight [the biblical Hebrew translates sunset or evening/night] has its own specific issues:

                              Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall.


                              Nor was the Passover meal ever consumed on 14 Nissan. The slaughter took place at twilight on that day, the Passover meal was taken after the animals had been skinned, checked for blemishes, and roasted and that would extended beyond sunset -i.e. into a new day - 15 Nissan.

                              Thus it may be understood that the festival begins towards the end of 14 Nissan i.e. at twilight with the slaughter of the lamb and then continues into the 15th with the entire period being considered as one long celebration and the 15th becomes an extension of that day. However, it is not literally 14th because between the slaughtering of the lamb and the eating of the meal the sun has set.

                              In the three synoptic accounts the disciples ask Jesus where he wishes to celebrate Passover and all three authors have the disciples asking that question on the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark referring explicitly to it being the First Day].

                              A logical explanation is therefore required as to why the disciples ask Jesus that question on the Day of Unleavened Bread [or in Matthew and Mark's respective texts the First Day] when a few chapters later all those synoptic texts have Jesus executed and buried before sunset on 14 Nissan.
                              Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 07-06-2022, 05:22 AM.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Wriggle at will.

                                You have stated that:

                                In the Torah, the fourteenth is termed the day of Passover, and the fifteenth is termed the first day of unleavened bread.


                                And

                                And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread.
                                Quite so - the familiar terms for those dates have not always been the same. The current term for the 14th is Passover Eve, the current term for the 15th is Passover.

                                The links I provided briefly mentioned that the period referred to as twilight [the biblical Hebrew translates sunset or evening/night] has its own specific issues:
                                They are issues, though those same definitions and issues don't vary markedly from those found in other languages: "gloaming" for example.

                                Shabbat and all the holidays begin at sunset, the earliest possible definition of nightfall, and end when three stars appear in the sky the next evening, the latest definition of nightfall.


                                If the 15th of Nisan conforms with the pattern of a Sabbath (assuming that the same pattern is common to all sects), it would be impossible to conduct the sacrifice at sunset at the close of the fourteenth. Note that the lights are already on before the Samaritan sacrifice.



                                Nor was the Passover meal ever consumed on 14 Nissan.
                                It would seem that it was celebrated on 14 Nisan at least once in Old Testament records.
                                Numbers 9:2 “Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. 3 “On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances.”

                                The whole rite of Passover observed on the 14th.

                                The slaughter took place at twilight on that day, the Passover meal was taken after the animals had been skinned, checked for blemishes, and roasted and that would extended beyond sunset -i.e. into a new day - 15 Nissan.
                                Ignores the fact that at the beginning of the day, it is twilight (particularly in circumstances where the day actually begins with (the earliest possible time) sunset, as you have stated).

                                Thus it may be understood that the festival begins towards the end of 14 Nissan i.e. at twilight with the slaughter of the lamb and then continues into the 15th with the entire period being considered as one long celebration and the 15th becomes an extension of that day. However, it is not literally 14th because between the slaughtering of the lamb and the eating of the meal the sun has set.
                                It MAY indeed be so understood. A different reading and understanding is not prohibited by "may," in fact the idea that alternatives can be permitted is inherent in the use of the term.

                                In the three synoptic accounts the disciples ask Jesus where he wishes to celebrate Passover and all three authors have the disciples asking that question on the Day of Unleavened Bread [Matthew and Mark referring explicitly to it being the First Day].
                                So the writers of the gospels considered the start of the festival of unleaveneds to begin on the day before the 15th (the 15th being termed Passover in the temple rite, not the 14th as stated in the Torah). It should also be noted that the Pharisees shifted the time of the sacrifice to mid afternoon during the Hasmonean dynasty, which would indicate during Salome Alexandra's reign. The rite as conducted by the temple is established by the Book of Jubilees 49:10-12, not by the Torah. Reading back from Jubilees into the Torah will result in the impression that Passover is to be celebrated in the day's end evening.

                                A logical explanation is therefore required as to why the disciples ask Jesus that question on the Day of Unleavened Bread [or in Matthew and Mark's respective texts the First Day] when a few chapters later all those synoptic texts have Jesus executed and buried before sunset on 14 Nissan.
                                The problem arises with nothing more than the differences in terminology between one Jewish sect and another.

                                http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com/
                                passover_unleavened.jpg

                                This year, the 1st of Nisan (Aviv in the Samaritan calendar) started at sundown on the 1st of April. The 14th of Nisan started at sundown on the 14th of April. (near as I can tell.)
                                Last edited by tabibito; 07-06-2022, 08:32 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                                Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                "when the church no longer teaches its people why they believe what they believe, the world will often step in and fill in the gaps." Ryan Danker

                                "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" Majority Consensus

                                Comment

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