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  • D
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    My, my. Someone is more upset than usual after seeing her assertion being deflated.
    Did I miss something? Where precisely have my comments been "deflated"?
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      D

      Did I miss something? Where precisely have my comments been "deflated"?

      Mild profanity warning

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


        Mild profanity warning
        Notwithstanding that Python and the Grail is hilarious, I fail to see how the clip of the Black Knight supports this remark:

        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        My, my. Someone is more upset than usual after seeing her assertion being deflated.
        Or in some way demonstrates that this following post has "deflated" my earlier comments:

        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

        In his An Introduction to the New Testament, Raymond E. Brown brings up a few instances of similar thought and terms, but that doesn't necessitate a familiarity with Paul's letters, particularly considering it is thought that they weren't gathered together until Marcion. More likely they were all using similar themes and terminology common among the early Christians.


        You clearly have nothing of substance to present and so resort to your default position of gifs and/or video clips, presumably thinking that these somehow prove your point.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          I think what also needs to be remembered is that when Paul wrote his letters he was not writing them in the belief he was writing "scripture". His letters were written to his proselytes addressing various issues and problems, while repeatedly reminding them to adhere to his teaching/gospel which was premised entirely on his own beliefs, and not to be led astray by "false teachers" [whomsoever they might have been].

          It was only later that some of these letters collected together and considered to be "inspired" and included in a canon of what would become "scripture".

          Hence his comments in I Corinthians 15 are not scripture with regard to what he apparently saw, but merely his own beliefs.
          Oh certainly. And the same applies to the gospels - they were ALL attempts to sell the Jesus story. But they are considered scripture now - and by many believers they are considered inerrant.
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            As to whether the early church had the correct viewpoint and whether you have accurately reported the early church's opinion, I'll reserve judgement. If the tradition is correct much has not been included in the Acts account. It is not unreasonable to believe that Luke did not give a detailed account.
            So, the ‘Word of God’ is not reliable.

            I don't recall anywhere that Paul describes Jesus as having a "merely visionary body."
            How then would you describe Acts 9: “As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
            No material touchable body such as we get in the Gospels was seen by Paul nor his companions in the scriptural accounts of his conversion – or elsewhere.

            Not quite empty, as my (and Rogue's) later posts note. However, in saying that the concept "can be reasonably considered clutching at straws" I have admitted that there is nothing like enough evidence to assert the position.
            Then why present it?

            Consensus is meaningless without satisfactory supporting evidence. There is a distinct lack of concrete evidence supporting majority consensus - unless you know of claims which I have not encountered. Feel free to proffer examples of the supporting evidence for late dates that you consider satisfactory. "Majority consensus says" does not constitute evidence, it is a mere argument from authority.
            Not an argument from authority per se but the consensus of experts in the field of biblical scholarship – including Raymond E Brown whom you yourself recently quoted:

            “It is likely that all four Gospels were written in the last half of the 1st cent. AD. The majority of scholars date Mark in the late 60’s before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, but the number of those who would date it shortly after 70 is increasing (Ernst, Gnilka, Pesch, Schmithals). The dating of Luke-Acts is more disputed than the dating of Matt. but ca. 85 is the most often suggested date for both. John is customarily assigned to the 90s, with final redaction in 100-110”.

            https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2017/12/22/new-testament-scholar-raymond-brown-the-authorship-and-the-dating-of-the-gospels/




            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              So, the ‘Word of God’ is not reliable.
              By early church, you seem to mean the Constantinian church, or the timeframe of its formation. No exegesis of Biblical content leads to a reasonable conclusion that all of the Bible's content is "the word of God."

              How then would you describe Acts 9: “As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
              No material touchable body such as we get in the Gospels was seen by Paul nor his companions in the scriptural accounts of his conversion – or elsewhere.
              It has already been pointed out that a non material encounter does not preclude the existence of a material body. (Skype eg)
              No explicit connection exists between the Acts account and Paul's report of having an encounter with Christ; the possibility exists that they are separate events. That they are two accounts from different perspectives of the same event is a logical expectation, but it cannot be asserted.

              Then why present it?
              There is enough to raise questions; not enough to allow for assertions.

              Not an argument from authority per se but the consensus of experts in the field of biblical scholarship – including Raymond E Brown whom you yourself recently quoted:
              Majority consensus doesn't exactly change with the wind but it does change quite frequently, and consensus does not always adequately take into account all known relevant details. Citing an author on a given issue says nothing about accepting whether the author is considered reliable regarding other issues.

              “It is likely that all four Gospels were written in the last half of the 1st cent. AD. The majority of scholars date Mark in the late 60’s before the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple, but the number of those who would date it shortly after 70 is increasing (Ernst, Gnilka, Pesch, Schmithals). The dating of Luke-Acts is more disputed than the dating of Matt. but ca. 85 is the most often suggested date for both. John is customarily assigned to the 90s, with final redaction in 100-110”.

              https://lutherwasnotbornagaincom.wordpress.com/2017/12/22/new-testament-scholar-raymond-brown-the-authorship-and-the-dating-of-the-gospels/
              In the citation Brown reports the majority consensus. He does not assert that the consensus is correct, though he does say that it is likely to be correct. My own assessment is that the consensus claim is unlikely. Brown also states that most scholars, though in diminishing number, consider Mark likely to have been written before the date of the fall of Jerusalem. Again, what most scholars conclude is not informative without knowing the bases they use (and ignore) in forming that conclusion.
              Last edited by tabibito; 06-24-2022, 01:37 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" majority consensus

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                Oh certainly. And the same applies to the gospels - they were ALL attempts to sell the Jesus story. But they are considered scripture now - and by many believers they are considered inerrant.
                I entirely agree. The anonymous writers of those four canonical gospels [and indeed of all the texts now contained in that canon] wrote their works separately and for their own particular Christian communities, reflecting those particular communities beliefs. None of them ever considered those texts would later be deemed "scripture" or interpreted premised on what others Christians would write.

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  In the citation Brown reports the majority consensus. He does not assert that the consensus is correct, though he does say that it is likely to be correct. My own assessment is that the consensus claim is unlikely.
                  I ask again, on what evidence are you premising your conclusions?

                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Notwithstanding that Python and the Grail is hilarious, I fail to see how the clip of the Black Knight supports this remark:



                    Or in some way demonstrates that this following post has "deflated" my earlier comments:



                    You clearly have nothing of substance to present and so resort to your default position of gifs and/or video clips, presumably thinking that these somehow prove your point.
                    Much like the black knight pretending he isn't having limbs hacked off, you continue to pretend that points don't get rebutted.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Much like the black knight pretending he isn't having limbs hacked off, you continue to pretend that points don't get rebutted.
                      And what exactly have you "rebutted"?
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        I ask again, on what evidence are you premising your conclusions?
                        Given the number of times I have already answered that challenge, I will forego the dubious pleasure of answering yet again.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                        Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                        "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" majority consensus

                        Comment


                        • Gotta love the last three posts.

                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Much like the black knight pretending he isn't having limbs hacked off, you continue to pretend that points don't get rebutted.
                          ​​​​​​​
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          And what exactly have you "rebutted"?
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          Given the number of times I have already answered that challenge, I will forego the dubious pleasure of answering yet again.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Given the number of times I have already answered that challenge, I will forego the dubious pleasure of answering yet again.
                            I do not recall you presenting any scholarly evidence in support of your contentions.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              I do not recall you presenting any scholarly evidence in support of your contentions.
                              The last things to look at when assessing an argument are the number of letters tacked onto the proponent's name, the number of books written, or reputation - they are irrelevant.
                              I'll accept a story if I can't break it, which sometimes means that I don't have enough information to know that a proposition or conclusion is invalid or unsound.
                              Scholarly evidence is valid and sound. Before I'll accept a story, I will require presentation of scholarly supporting evidence.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              "It is not divine truth that makes the man seem more innocent in what is equally sinful, but human wrong-headedness." AUGUSTINE: re adultery

                              "The synoptic gospels claim that Jesus was crucified on the 15th day of Nisan and buried on the 14th day of Nisan:" majority consensus

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                The last things to look at when assessing an argument are the number of letters tacked onto the proponent's name, the number of books written, or reputation - they are irrelevant.
                                Only to the ignorant or the bigoted.

                                Qualifications and academic experience carry some weight even if one might disagree with what the individual academic is proposing.

                                It does not follow that we should slavishly assume that every offering produced by any and every academic should be dutifully accepted unquestioningly and we certainly do not do that amongst ourselves as any late night gathering in the bar at a conference will quickly demonstrate. However, the fact that many academics have achieved high recognition from among their peers in their respective fields and we have all met rigorous and demanding academic standards [well at least in Europe] illustrates there is a modicum of competence within academia [and yes that was intended sarcastically] even if we may disagree with an individual's contentions, or even their entire argument.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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