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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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How can we know that God is?
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"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Get back to me when you can suggest something that hasn't been beaten into a fine pink mist.
You mean like the opening to I Corinthians 15? And when we look at Acts, we can see that this message was one that Paul taught wherever he went.
During his first missionary journey, Paul preached Jesus’s resurrection and used the appearances to the disciples to substantiate that resurrection (Acts 13:26-31). Jesus’ resurrection featured prominently in Paul’s preaching in Thessalonica (Acts 17:3), Athens (17:31), and Corinth (note how I Corinthians 15:1 makes it clear Paul is repeating what he taught when he was there a couple of years earlier).
Last edited by Tassman; 06-14-2022, 12:14 AM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Nevertheless, that fact remains that the least probable explanation for a missing body is that “it must have resurrected”. And the ‘empty tomb wasn’t ever mentioned by Paul. It didn’t rate a reference in scripture until 40 years after the fact in Mark i.e., two decades after Paul wrote his Epistles.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Nevertheless, that fact remains that the least probable explanation for a missing body is that “it must have resurrected”. And the ‘empty tomb wasn’t ever mentioned by Paul. It didn’t rate a reference in scripture until 40 years after the fact in Mark i.e., two decades after Paul wrote his Epistles.
As noted, this objection has been dealt with time and time again, it would behoove you to look back at some of these times and focus on the terminal rebuttals rather than just repeating the same thing like a broken record.
Originally posted by Tassman View PostWhen we look to the ‘little creed’ of 1 Cor. 15 as quoted by Paul we see accounts of “appearances” of Jesus, not bodily physical experiences just as in the Damascene vision which Paul recounts as “And last of all, He appeared also to me, as to one of untimely birth…”
The creedal statement, which scholars agree dates back to within a few years of the Crucifixion and Resurrection, isn't meant as a full detailed dissertation. Merely seeing a non-physical image would not convince someone that the person had been resurrected. They would figure they had encountered a ghost, and dealing with the dead was an abomination (Deuteronomy 18:11-12).
Originally posted by Tassman View PostNot in Paul’s own writings apart from the ‘little creed’ of 1 Cor. 15 – see above.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Paul said that Christ died, he revived, he lived. What need is there to point out the obvious implication of that statement?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Paul said that Christ died, he revived, he lived. What need is there to point out the obvious implication of that statement?
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
But no physical body1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
The creedal statement, which scholars agree dates back to within a few years of the Crucifixion and Resurrection, isn't meant as a full detailed dissertation.
Yes, a secondary confirmatory source validating what Paul wrote in I Corinthians.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
Comment
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
And in Paul’s presentation of the ‘little creed’ (which we agree dates back much nearer to the crucifixion) he compares it with his own experience of Jesus’ on the Damascus Rd, whereby Jesus did NOT appear before him as a physical body.
Yes. The ‘little creed’ is the primary source. But it is only in the secondary sources, i.e., the gospels, written 40 plus years after the death of Jesus - that we get mention of Jesus’ fleshly body having resurrected. This is NOT what we get in the ‘little creed’ OR Paul’s Damascene experience of the resurrected Jesus.
You may consider it proper to ignore anything else Paul may have had to say about the resurrected Christ, I do not. Your argument relies on interpreting an (imagined) ambiguity in Paul's writing to conflict with the body of evidence available from some other passages in Paul's writing (and other authors).
Paul flatly stated "For to this end Christ died and lived* again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."
{{* lived: In the Koine Greek, εζησεν: present tense - he lives.}}Last edited by tabibito; 06-15-2022, 12:24 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Paul had an encounter with the flesh and blood Jesus. Whether that encounter was face to face or remotely is immaterial to his argument.
“[that] Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
You may consider it proper to ignore anything else Paul may have had to say about the resurrected Christ, I do not. Your argument relies on interpreting an (imagined) ambiguity in Paul's writing to conflict with the body of evidence available from some other passages in Paul's writing (and other authors).
Paul flatly stated "For to this end Christ died and lived* again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."
{{* lived: In the Koine Greek, εζησεν: present tense - he lives.}
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
Comment
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Acts of the Apostles, written some decades after the death of Paul, gives us three different accounts of Paul's vision. None of which was a physical, flesh and blood Jesus as depicted in the gospels.Acts 9:3 suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Acts 22:9 - “And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me. {{I've been present during other people's phone calls when the voice on the other end was audible but not comprehensible. Will you argue that there was no real flesh and blood person on the other end during those calls? Paul is not cited as claiming to have seen anyone here.}}
Acts 26:14 - " when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’" {{In this report, Paul is not cited as saying he saw anyone.}}
Not surprisingly, one account or another reports particulars that are not part of the basic account, and information regarding whether or not there was a physical person on the other end of the "call" is not in any of them. In the ordinary course, that would indicate that a real person had actually been involved.
And yet Paul clearly believed it was Jesus’ voice that he (and he alone) heard.
This vision on the road to Damascus informs his understanding of the 1 Cor 15 creed in which he includes himself as someone to whom Jesus “appeared”.
That might indicate that Paul had another encounter at some other time, or that the accounts in Acts are, even in combination, incomplete. As has been pointed out repeatedly, the word translated as "appeared" is an English grammar friendly rendering of the Koine Greek "got seen."
“…and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. We know this was not a physical event given that none of those with Paul saw Jesus.
Yes, “he lives” in the hearts of those that believed in him - as Christians then and now acknowledge.Last edited by tabibito; 06-15-2022, 05:41 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostPaul said that Christ died, he revived, he lived. What need is there to point out the obvious implication of that statement?Originally posted by Tassman View PostBut no physical body - as claimed by the decades later gospels. To this day Christians believe that Jesus lives in their hearts – as did Paul at his Damascene experience of Jesus.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Incorrect - the accounts show that a voice was heard, but not understood.
Acts 9:5. ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις.
Acts 22:8 ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος7 ὃν σὺ διώκεις
Acts 26:15 ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις..
Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-15-2022, 06:25 AM."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe author of acts makes it quite clear as to whose voice Saul was apparently hearing
Acts 9:5. ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις.
Acts 22:8 ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὁ Ναζωραῖος7 ὃν σὺ διώκεις
Acts 26:15 ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις..
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Context ... my comment was a reference to the bystanders、addressing Tassman's reference to the same.
There is no mention of bystanders in that section of your reply.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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