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The Problem Of Evil?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    And you cannot address my points to explain why your omniscient creator being set up its creation to fail.
    No He set up human freedom, knowing that it would fail. Not ordaining that it would fail.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      No He set up human freedom, knowing that it would fail. Not ordaining that it would fail.
      If something is omniscient it knows everything. In other words it ordains/destines everything and knows the outcome of every situation.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by seer View Post

        Nope the analogy holds. I knew that having a child would be difficult for me and my wife and it was pretty much certain that the child would suffer (to one degree or another) in this life. But we still decided it was worth it.
        Neither you nor your wife are omniscient and omnipotent creator beings that exist outside time.

        However, I am glad your child brought you both joy and, hopefully, not too much suffering.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          And you cannot address my points to explain why your omniscient creator being set up its creation to fail.
          You are attempting to equate the mind of a supreme creator being into the construction of a mere mortal.

          Isaiah 55

          8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
          Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

          9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
          So are My ways higher than your ways
          And My thoughts than your thoughts.


          Neither you nor I can fully understand the ways of the Lord. Faith and trust come into play in the life of the believer, however, because we do believe and trust.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            If something is omniscient it knows everything. In other words it ordains/destines everything and knows the outcome of every situation.
            Bingo!


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

              You are attempting to equate the mind of a supreme creator being into the construction of a mere mortal.

              Isaiah 55

              8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
              Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

              9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
              So are My ways higher than your ways
              And My thoughts than your thoughts.


              Neither you nor I can fully understand the ways of the Lord. Faith and trust come into play in the life of the believer, however, because we do believe and trust.
              Well if we are quote-mining texts out of context then ten chapters back we have this.

              I form light and create darkness,
              I make weal and create woe;
              I the Lord do all these things
              .

              Which belies the belief in an entirely compassionate deity. The deity in those verses is quite prepared to bring misery and horror.

              That is not a deity I would want to believe in. Humans are quite capable of bringing about enough horror and misery by themselves.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                If something is omniscient it knows everything. In other words it ordains/destines everything and knows the outcome of every situation.
                Nope, that doesn't follow. Knowing that my son would at times would disobey me (with nearly certain knowledge) before he was born does not mean that I wanted him to or condoned it.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  You are attempting to equate the mind of a mere mortal into the construct of a supreme creator being
                  It's called an analogy, Hypatia. People use them all the time in order to explain a concept to someone else. I am sure you understand exactly what I was saying. If a mere mortal like you can grasp the value of allowing your son free will to make mistakes, imagine how much more a supreme creator would be able to see the value of free will in his creations.

                  And according to the belief in an omniscient deity that God gave us free will in full knowledge of what would happen. i.e. that its creation, Adam and Eve would be tempted by the serpent, eat the fruit, get expelled, and subsequent human misery [sin] would follow.

                  This belief becomes even weirder when we consider that this creator being also knew [outside time and because it is omniscient] that it would then have send part of itself to be sacrificed to sort out the problem that it had knowingly and in full knowledge initiated/set up.

                  .
                  You gave birth to your son, knowing full well he would use his free will to disobey you from time to time, and do things that could harm him.

                  It's not weird that God allowed his creation free will knowing they would sin and having a plan in place to redeem them. It was better than creating automatons that had no free will. This way we not only have the free will to choose to follow and love our creator, we have experienced how bad sin and evil really are. Just as your son learned various lessons by failing or getting hurt along the way growing up. He is a better human being because of his failures than if he had been overly protected his whole life.


                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Well if we are quote-mining texts out of context then ten chapters back we have this.

                    I form light and create darkness,
                    I make weal and create woe;
                    I the Lord do all these things
                    .

                    Which belies the belief in an entirely compassionate deity. The deity in those verses is quite prepared to bring misery and horror.

                    Who said that the Deity is entirely compassionate? He is also a perfectly righteous and just Being. Scripture is very clear in laying out the penalty for sin. And because all of creation is in a fallen state, good and bad things happen. After all, the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

                    [quite]That is not a deity I would want to believe in. Humans are quite capable of bringing about enough horror and misery by themselves.[/QUOTE]

                    Aren’t you glad you have a choice? What a horror it would be for you to end up in the presence of the Creator God for all eternity when you hate Him so much.




                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      If something is omniscient it knows everything. In other words it ordains/destines everything and knows the outcome of every situation.
                      And he knew he would redeem us. The outcome is that those of us who choose to will live with God forever and those that don't want to can live without him forever. Use your free will to choose God while you can Hypatia.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by seer View Post

                        Nope, that doesn't follow. Knowing that my son would at times would disobey me (with nearly certain knowledge) before he was born does not mean that I wanted him to or condoned it.
                        Your understanding of human nature allowed you to know that your child would disobey you but you did not know HOW he would.

                        God knew the behaviour of every person that would be born before He created anything.

                        HA doesn’t seem to be able to grasp the difference.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Neither you nor your wife are omniscient and omnipotent creator beings that exist outside time.
                          OK let's go with your objection. Since God is omniscient and omnipotent and knows WAY more than you do, who are you to object to the way he is doing thing then?




                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                            Neither you nor your wife are omniscient and omnipotent creator beings that exist outside time.

                            However, I am glad your child brought you both joy and, hopefully, not too much suffering.
                            I know from experience that there would be suffering for my son, and that he would disobey. This was as certain as possible. God created a world where He knew there would be both goodness and suffering. Kindness and harm. Does goodness outweigh harm? We could never quantify such things, but God could....
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              If Adam and Eve would have resisted the temptation in the garden, it still would have been possible for God to satisfy his desire for glorification through the free will of man and the reciprocity of love. Don't you think?


                              In fact, Plan B must have been something even greater, because surely He didn't want man to to fall. So it was really Plan A...man just chose plan B.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Clarification:

                                Plan A - what God intended

                                Plan B - what man chose...the fall

                                It may help to understand Plan B more fully if we take a look at what Plan A was.

                                Comment

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