The Problem Of Evil?

[seer]

If Adam and Eve would have resisted the temptation in the garden, it still would have been possible for God to satisfy his desire for glorification through the free will of man and the reciprocity of love. Don't you think?


In fact, Plan B must have been something even greater, because surely He didn't want man to to fall. So it was really Plan A...man just chose plan B.

Watchman Nee wrote about the latent power of the soul. That if we never fell, we would have eventually grown into a perfect faith like Christ. With power over nature and death and the devil. But I have to wonder, as humanity spiritually matured, and we did have free will, would a segment still have sinned? Then we would have had a mish mash of sinners and non-sinners. Perhaps that would have been a bigger mess. Perhaps God thought it best to just get it all over and let the fall run its course.

[Machinist]

Watchman Nee wrote about the latent power of the soul. That if we never fell, we would have eventually grown into a perfect faith like Christ. With power over nature and death and the devil. But I have to wonder, as humanity spiritually matured, and we did have free will, would a segment still have sinned? Then we would have had a mish mash of sinners and non-sinners. Perhaps that would have been a bigger mess. Perhaps God thought it best to just get it all over and let the fall run its course.

I have a book of Watchman Nee's: The Spiritual Man. I've read parts of it. He gets extremely esoteric.

[seer]

I have a book of Watchman Nee's: The Spiritual Man. I've read parts of it. He gets extremely esoteric.

Yes he does. I look at it this way, God created men innocent, but they were not morally or spiritually tried. Perhaps if we did not fall we could have eventually eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, without being tempted to do evil. In other words I take it that soul making would require real tests to be passed, real moral evil to overcome...

[Machinist]

Yes he does. I look at it this way, God created men innocent, but they were not morally or spiritually tried. Perhaps if we did not fall we could have eventually eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, without being tempted to do evil. In other words I take it that soul making would require real tests to be passed, real moral evil to overcome...

I like your line of thought here. This is what I am sort of groping in the dark for. Perhaps to get a clearer understanding on things like Soul and Spirit, and Free will, etc.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It's called an analogy, Hypatia. People use them all the time in order to explain a concept to someone else. I am sure you understand exactly what I was saying. If a mere mortal like you can grasp the value of allowing your son free will to make mistakes, imagine how much more a supreme creator would be able to see the value of free will in his creations.

I fully understand what you have written but I do not think it is apt. There is no comparison between a human parent and a theological construct or concept.

You gave birth to your son, knowing full well he would use his free will to disobey you from time to time, and do things that could harm him.

The difference being that I do not exist outside time and I am not omniscient.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Who said that the Deity is entirely compassionate? He is also a perfectly righteous and just Being. Scripture is very clear in laying out the penalty for sin. And because all of creation is in a fallen state, good and bad things happen. After all, the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Your theological beliefs aside, the concept of being "just" i.e. meting out justice should always take into account compassion and extenuating circumstances.

Unless the concept of being "just" is entirely removed from such considerations.

[seer]

I like your line of thought here. This is what I am sort of groping in the dark for. Perhaps to get a clearer understanding on things like Soul and Spirit, and Free will, etc.

Have you every read CS Lewis' "The Problem of Pain?"

[mossrose]

Your theological beliefs aside, the concept of being "just" i.e. meting out justice should always take into account compassion and extenuating circumstances.

Unless the concept of being "just" is entirely removed from such considerations.

It's impossible for me to put my theological beliefs aside, as that is how I live my life, and this thread is about theological belief.

You continue to show that you do not understand the character of God. I don't expect you to, because you are dead in your sin. There are no extenuating circumstances when it comes to God the Judge.

The compassion of God comes from His nature as a Saviour. Our lives on this planet reflect just a moment in time compared to eternity, and He is so concerned with our eternal state as compared to our temporal state that He provided a way of salvation for mankind.

God made His laws perfectly clear, and there is a penalty for breaking those laws, just as there are penalties for breaking the laws of man. Earthly judges may have compassion on a criminal, but that judge still will be bound to apply the penalty for the law that is broken.

In the same way, God, in His perfect righteousness, that says that the breaking of His law must be punished, is bound by His own nature to carry out that punishment.

But, His compassion and love provided a Saviour to bear the punishment of everyone who believes in Him. We cannot pay the penalty for our sins. The Judge has taken it upon Himself to pay that penalty for us.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It's impossible for me to put my theological beliefs aside, as that is how I live my life, and this thread is about theological belief.

I appreciate that but your beliefs are subjective and preconceived.

The compassion of God comes from His nature as a Saviour. Our lives on this planet reflect just a moment in time compared to eternity, and He is so concerned with our eternal state as compared to our temporal state that He provided a way of salvation for mankind.

God made His laws perfectly clear, and there is a penalty for breaking those laws, just as there are penalties for breaking the laws of man. Earthly judges may have compassion on a criminal, but that judge still will be bound to apply the penalty for the law that is broken.

In the same way, God, in His perfect righteousness, that says that the breaking of His law must be punished, is bound by His own nature to carry out that punishment.

But, His compassion and love provided a Saviour to bear the punishment of everyone who believes in Him. We cannot pay the penalty for our sins. The Judge has taken it upon Himself to pay that penalty for us.

The point I made and that neither seer or yourself have actually addressed is that if this deity is omniscient It had foreknowledge of what the serpent would do [which poses the question why did It create the serpent?] It also knew exactly what Eve and Adam would do.

It therefore appears to have set up Its creation [humans] to fail and created a problem [i.e. sin] of Its own making and with full foreknowledge.

If this entity is believed to be omniscient then It knows everything, i.e. Past, Present, and Future. And this entity knows [and has known because it is outside time] everything that every single one of Its creations [not just humans] will do and has done.

[Cow Poke]

I appreciate that but your beliefs are subjective and preconceived.

Doing that mindreading thing again that you pretend to hate?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Doing that mindreading thing again that you pretend to hate?

What was written is a preconceived belief and entirely subjective.

[Cow Poke]

What was written is a preconceived belief and entirely subjective.

But that's just your opinion.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

But that's just your opinion.

Consult a Christian with a different approach to their religion, or a believer from another faith.

You will find preconceived ideas and subjective beliefs that may not resonate with, or will be entirely different from your own.

Who holds the True Belief?

No one. It is all preconceived and subjective.

[Cow Poke]

Consult a Christian with a different approach to their religion, or a believer from another faith.

You will find preconceived ideas and subjective beliefs that may not resonate with, or will be entirely different from your own.

Who holds the True Belief?

No one. It is all preconceived and subjective.

You're making the error of assuming beliefs cannot change. Mine have.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You're making the error of assuming beliefs cannot change. Mine have.

I'll wager they are still subjective and still preconceived.