The Problem Of Evil?

[seer]

As H_A notes



IF, as is often stated, there are no diversions in the time line, and, that time line was established during creation and has existed unchanging ever since creation, then God would in fact be responsible for each and every part of each and every event. Everything throughout history would have been established by him from the inception of the first event. That conclusion is logically inescapable.

That concept however, does not originate with scripture - there is no way that a plain reading of scripture can get you there.

So you are an open theist? And no your point does not follow if God's foreknowledge is contingent on our acts. And if you are correct how could prophecy ever be reliable?

[Sparko]

No different than you knowing all of your actions in the past. And there is nothing you can do to change the past, all of your actions are fixed. Doesn't meant that you didn't have free will when you did them.

Knowing what someone will do doesn't mean causing them to do it. It just means you know what they will do.

Think of it like this. The future me of tomorrow will know everything H_A is going to post today. Just like the me of today knows everything she posted yesterday. Yet that doesn't mean that the future me is causing her to post what she does, nor does it mean that she has no free will. Future me only knows what she will choose to post of her own free will.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No different than you knowing all of your actions in the past.

Yes it is. I do not have foreknowledge. Nor do I exist outside of Time and nor am I an omnipotent and omniscient Creator Being.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Think of it like this. The future me of tomorrow will know everything H_A is going to post today. Just like the me of today knows everything she posted yesterday. Yet that doesn't mean that the future me is causing her to post what she does, nor does it mean that she has no free will. Future me only knows what she will choose to post of her own free will.

Once again you do not have foreknowledge and nor are you an omniscient and omnipotent Creator Being that exists outside of Time.

[tabibito]

So you are an open theist?

I have never studied open theism at any depth. The limited knowledge that I have of the concept shows a largely confluent understanding.

And no your point does not follow if God's foreknowledge is contingent on our acts. And if you are correct how could prophecy ever be reliable?

If God's foreknowledge is contingent upon our actions, what our actions were to be was not known before we acted. That concept is encapsulated in the use of the word "contingent." The only way I can square that with scripture is to posit that the future does not yet exist. Other means might theoretically be available, but I can't identify them.

Prophecy, insofar as it concerns forecasting, is perfectly reliable: it works on the basis of calculated probabilities. It is not much of an exaggeration (if it is any exaggeration) to say that all God-disclosed prophecy has an inherent "if" associated with it.
1/ God decides to do something. He can't be thwarted, so the prophecy will be fulfilled - assuming that he doesn't change his mind cf: Ninevah.
2/ God decides to do something contingent upon given events occurring. Most of the prophecy recorded in scripture falls into this category.
3/ The prophet is sent to warn a person that a given action will have given natural consequences. You see a glass fall from a third floor window toward a concrete patio below. Prophesy (forecast) - the glass is broken. God's knowledge can be sufficient to know that the glass has fallen some centuries in advance of the event. At other times, the glass may be known to have fallen only a little before the event is observed.


These matters are observable in the record of Jonah and Ninevah - whether a factual record or a "morality play," the lesson is the same. So too, Sodom and Gomorrah.

As I have noted before: to get a reasonably accurate broad brush overview of how prophecy works, you can do worse than read Isaac Asimov's Foundation (+ Foundation and Empire, and (not so much) Second Foundation). The trilogy gives a far better exposition than I ever could.

[seer]

If God's foreknowledge is contingent upon our actions, what our actions were to be was not known before we acted. That concept is encapsulated in the use of the word "contingent." The only way I can square that with scripture is to posit that the future does not yet exist. Other means might theoretically be available, but I can't identify them.

That is the sticking point, if God is outside of time (whatever that means) perhaps He can merely see our free acts rather than cause them.

Prophecy, insofar as it concerns forecasting, is perfectly reliable: it works on the basis of calculated probabilities. It is not much of an exaggeration (if it is any exaggeration) to say that all God-disclosed prophecy has an inherent "if" associated with it.
1/ God decides to do something. He can't be thwarted, so the prophecy will be fulfilled - assuming that he doesn't change his mind cf: Ninevah.
2/ God decides to do something contingent upon given events occurring. Most of the prophecy recorded in scripture falls into this category.
3/ The prophet is sent to warn a person that a given action will have given natural consequences. You see a glass fall from a third floor window toward a concrete patio below. Prophesy (forecast) - the glass is broken. God's knowledge can be sufficient to know that the glass has fallen some centuries in advance of the event. At other times, the glass may be known to have fallen only a little before the event is observed.

Christ told Peter he would deny him three times before the cock crowed, that is quite specific. Which category does that fit?

[Sparko]

Once again you do not have foreknowledge and nor are you an omniscient and omnipotent Creator Being that exists outside of Time.

So? The principal is the same. I can know what you did yesterday and that doesn't change that what you did was freely done. You can't change what you did yesterday. It is fixed. Yet what you did was free will. Same with what you will do today. From the perspective of someone in the future, everything you do today could be known to them and you can't do anything differently, because if you did, THAT is what they would know, right? So foreknowledge is basically the same as someone from the far future knowing what we will do between now and then. They are not making us do what we will do. They just know what we will do. If we choose to do something different then that is what they will know. Their knowledge is dependent on what we do, not the other way around.

If I could contact my future self and he could tell me everything you will post today, then I would have "foreknowledge" right? And unless I interfered with you by telling you, you will do exactly what I know you will do. That doesn't make you do it.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So? The principal is the same.

No it is not the same for the exact reasons I gave.

[tabibito]

That is the sticking point, if God is outside of time (whatever that means) perhaps He can merely see our free acts rather than cause them.

It is a logical conclusion, but nothing in scripture addresses the issue. (neither pro nor con).

Christ told Peter he would deny him three times before the cock crowed, that is quite specific. Which category does that fit?

The third. It was a the result of a series of wholly human actions. The glass was still on the window ledge, so to speak, but nothing at that point could prevent it from being dislodged outward from its position. At the time that Jesus prophesied, probability had reached 100%.

Christ's death was not specified in OT scripture - his suffering was. I am confident that probability of execution reached 100% with John the Baptist's execution - and no, I cannot provide proof for that assessment.

[seer]

It is a logical conclusion, but nothing in scripture addresses the issue. (neither pro nor con).

OK...

The third. It was a the result of a series of wholly human actions. The glass was still on the window ledge, so to speak, but nothing at that point could prevent it from being dislodged outward from its position. At the time that Jesus prophesied, probability had reached 100%.

I think it is way to specific for that. Three people had to confront Peter, not four or one or two. And there was no guarantee that Peter would deny him, especially the third time after the first two.

[Sparko]

No it is not the same for the exact reasons I gave.

You didn't give any reasons, just claimed it was so. Even if I had perfect knowledge of everything you will do tomorrow it wouldn't mean I made you do it. I only know what you will do because you choose to do it. Same as my knowledge of the past.

Right now I know, for example that Booth assassinated Lincoln. If I had a time machine and could travel back to the day before it happened, I would still know what Booth was going to do. Unless I interfere somehow, his actions will still be his free will action, even though I have complete knowledge of what he will do the next day. Knowledge doesn't mean control.

[tabibito]

I think it is way to specific for that. Three people had to confront Peter, not four or one or two. And there was no guarantee that Peter would deny him, especially the third time after the first two.

What made three people necessary? One challenger who continued to insist that Peter was a follower of Jesus through three denials would have produced the same result. Nothing would stop Peter from making those denials, but the circumstances prompting them were left open.

[seer]

What made three people necessary? One challenger who continued to insist that Peter was a follower of Jesus through three denials would have produced the same result. Nothing would stop Peter from making those denials, but the circumstances prompting them were left open.

Yet three is the definite number, he had to deny three times. Why not two or ten?

[tabibito]

Yet three is the definite number, he had to deny three times. Why not two or ten?

Weather forecasts today are more accurate for a week in advance than they were for one day in advance fifty years ago (IIRC). The number of variables that can be accurately taken into consideration has improved remarkably.

The number of variables in play for Peter's denials would have been high, but well within God's ability to take into account and predict the outcome with ultimate accuracy. Moreover, though too specific to be attributed to random chance or be open to a charge of a generic forecast that could be met by any number of events, the prophecy is not particularly detailed.

Speculation once more:
Faced with the circumstances in play, Peter's ability to exercise freewill may have been compromised - which may have eliminated the possibility of a wild card changing things.

[seer]

Weather forecasts today are more accurate for a week in advance than they were for one day in advance fifty years ago (IIRC). The number of variables that can be accurately taken into consideration has improved remarkably.

The number of variables in play for Peter's denials would have been high, but well within God's ability to take into account and predict the outcome with ultimate accuracy. Moreover, though too specific to be attributed to random chance or be open to a charge of a generic forecast that could be met by any number of events, the prophecy is not particularly detailed.

Speculation once more:
Faced with the circumstances in play, Peter's ability to exercise freewill may have been compromised - which may have eliminated the possibility of a wild card changing things.

None of that gets you to a specific number of three without foreknowledge, unless it was a lucky guess.