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The Problem Of Evil?

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  • #16
    God gave us the ability to be His agents of good by accepting Christ and being sealed with His Spirit. We often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 as the "not by works" verse, but we overlook v 10.

    Scripture Verse: Ephesians 2:8-10

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    © Copyright Original Source



    We have the power to combat evil in Jesus' name, and were created to do so.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      That sounds like they would have to be determined to love him. Real freedom means having the ability not to love and obey God.
      They had that freedom in the garden.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by mossrose View Post

        You are not putting God's omniscience into play here. He didn’t need a contingency plan because He knew before the world was created what every man was going to do. He knew Adam and Eve would sin, and His plan of redemption was already in place.
        Yeah, I know this argument. I don't know...it's just not satisfying to me. There still would have been a contingency plan before the world was created. If you really believe what you said here, then the logical conclusions would be something similar to what Dave L preaches.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Machinist View Post

          Yeah, I know this argument. I don't know...it's just not satisfying to me. There still would have been a contingency plan before the world was created. If you really believe what you said here, then the logical conclusions would be something similar to what Dave L preaches.
          Um, not like Dave at all. Just because God knew what I would do before I was created doesn’t mean I knew what I would do up to the point of realizing my sinful state and need for a Saviour. Hid didn’t MAKE me choose salvation, but He knew that I would.



          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post

            They had that freedom in the garden.
            Yes, they had that choice. But God knew what they would choose.


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

              Yes, they had that choice. But God knew what they would choose.
              Very well. And if they didn't choose to partake of the fruit, then life on Earth would have carried on per plan B.

              God's need for humans to love Him with their own free could still be fulfilled.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                Very well. And if they didn't choose to partake of the fruit, then life on Earth would have carried on per plan B.

                God's need for humans to love Him with their own free could still be fulfilled.
                God knew BEFORE He created man that man would fall and need a Saviour. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

                The purpose of man's creation is to give God glory. That glory is attained through the salvation of mankind by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why He created mankind. For His glory.


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                  God knew BEFORE He created man that man would fall and need a Saviour. It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

                  The purpose of man's creation is to give God glory. That glory is attained through the salvation of mankind by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That's why He created mankind. For His glory.
                  Are you saying that the only way God could have satisfied His desire for glory was for man to fall?

                  Was there no other logical path for Him to fulfill this?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                    Very well. And if they didn't choose to partake of the fruit, then life on Earth would have carried on per plan B.

                    God's need for humans to love Him with their own free could still be fulfilled.
                    One could ask this. If man never fell, could we have ever known, in practical application, the depths of His love and mercy? How far He was willing to go to redeem us?

                    And I would throw soul making into this:

                    Hick’s vale of soul-making

                    Hick's theodicy is based on the same one as Irenaeus. However, Hick further developed the theory, called the ‘vale of soul-making.’ Hick agreed that humans were created as imperfect from the start, so that they could grow and develop into the "likeness" of God. He developed this further by explaining that through hardships and life, humans develop virtues, and these virtues are more meaningful than if they were simply graced to humans by God.

                    These good, moral traits are best as they come from free will. Unlike Augustine, who claimed that humanity destroyed a perfect world, Hick and Irenaeus say that the perfect world is one to look forward to. Hick also believes that everyone has the chance to achieve eternal life.
                    Last edited by seer; 01-21-2022, 11:48 AM.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      One could ask this. If man never fell, could we have ever known, in practical application, the depths of His love and mercy? How far He was willing to go to redeem us?
                      Obviously not.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                        Are you saying that the only way God could have satisfied His desire for glory was for man to fall?

                        Was there no other logical path for Him to fulfill this?
                        Well, to begin with, God's ways are far beyond our ways, and our logic in no way can suffice to understand why He does what He does.

                        Perhaps it would help you to read the transcript, or listen to or watch the message that I linked to a bit earlier in this thread. It explains much better than I can.


                        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                          Here is a great sermon about the problem of evil. This is the transcript, but the option is there to either listen or watch.

                          https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-...roblem-of-evil
                          He sounds a bit like Dave L. Calvinism.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            He sounds a bit like Dave L. Calvinism.
                            HyperDave!
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                              Obviously not.
                              So maybe that was an important quality of God for us to know?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Boy this a good old one, but there's always a bit of flavor left in a stick of gum, no matter how long you chew it.

                                This has been mostly covered, but I'll throw in another idea. Why would a perfect and all powerful being need to be loved? Or to have glory (in the eyes of whom?). I got the following from a Da'var I get from a Rabbi (nice guy, he'll answer my questions sometimes). Basically, it goes like this: God needs nothing from us. His only desire/function (that's not quite the meaning) is to help us.

                                Though I don't think the evidence supports that, it does make sense from a logical point of view. What would a 3-omni God need from us? Maybe he got bored and made the universe and us to pass the time? That still doesn't explain the problem of evil though.

                                Mossy, you threw in the "mysterious ways" card. It makes sense in a way, but it makes all this discussion redundant. "Don't try to understand God because you can't".

                                Comment

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