Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Wealth and salvation in Mark 10.17-22
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Ah now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain.
I do not believe that the texts in the Bible as they have come down to us are inerrant and "the word of God" as some here do.
Nor do I believe the alleged miracles.
However, the Bible as a collection of texts plays a very important part of Western civilisation and for that reason alone those texts are worthy of study within their contemporary socio-religious and historical contexts."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
That is a rather inaccurate statement.
I do not believe that the texts in the Bible as they have come down to us are inerrant and "the word of God" as some here do.
Nor do I believe the alleged miracles.
However, the Bible as a collection of texts plays a very important part of Western civilisation and for that reason alone those texts are worthy of study within their contemporary socio-religious and historical contexts.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Nothing beats reading an own goal with my morning bacon
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
[...]
https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-...-review/24/6/3
On July 7, 1969, with due solemnity, the earthly remains of the last defenders of Masada were buried near the foot of the Roman ramp leading up to the site. The chief chaplain of the Israeli army, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, officiated. The dead were buried with full military honors, as befitted those who had withstood a Roman siege for three years nearly 2,000 years ago (70–73 A.D.). Various dignitaries, including Menachem Begin, who later became prime minister and signed the Camp David accords, attended. Yigael Yadin, Israel’s most illustrious archaeologist and the excavator of Masada, read from the final speech of Eleazar Ben Yair, commander of the Jewish defenders, as recorded by the first-century A.D. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.
Such pomp would be all well and good were it not for one problem: Most of the skeletons buried in this ceremony were probably those of Roman soldiers and civilians, not of the Jewish defenders.
Unfortunately, the mistake in identity was not only the result of scholarly error; the story has all the earmarks of a deliberate attempt to avoid facing the evidence at hand.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAh now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain.
Originally posted by Hypatia_AlexandriaWell let's face it you believe in other things I also consider to be nonsense.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I do not think I have ever stated that "the Bible" is nonsense although the texts are often contradictory.
However, to understand why those contradictions occur requires more than just reading one's translation and assuming it to be the "word of God".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
On reflection, I will grant that my statement was somewhat hyperbolic.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou merely treat any thought that it might have veracity with disdain - and the people who consider it to have veracity with open contempt.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostMost Christians don't hold the view that the Bible is inerrant.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe fact that it contains errors is easily demonstrated.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe record itself assigns complete accuracy only to prophecy, as broadly defined.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostLikewise prophecies, which is to say that you assign no veracity to the Biblical record.
However, if you are asking do I believe some individuals lived for hundreds of years, or that the entire globe was covered by a flood, or that a dead body was resurrected three days after death, or that men got bodily taken up into the heavens, then the answer is No.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
So you assign it a significance roughly on a par with Shakespeare's works."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
oh?
there is absolutely no reason to trust you to exegete Scripture.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNothing beats reading an own goal with my morning bacon
However, as no one has ever disputed Yadin's competence I am not entirely sure why you consider that an own goal has occurred.
What is interesting is that you only emphasised a few words that supported your fan-worship and ignored the more pertinent section of that first quote.
On July 7, 1969, with due solemnity, the earthly remains of the last defenders of Masada were buried near the foot of the Roman ramp leading up to the site. The chief chaplain of the Israeli army, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, officiated. The dead were buried with full military honors, as befitted those who had withstood a Roman siege for three years nearly 2,000 years ago (70–73 A.D.). Various dignitaries, including Menachem Begin, who later became prime minister and signed the Camp David accords, attended. Yigael Yadin, Israel’s most illustrious archaeologist and the excavator of Masada, read from the final speech of Eleazar Ben Yair, commander of the Jewish defenders, as recorded by the first-century A.D. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.
Such pomp would be all well and good were it not for one problem: Most of the skeletons buried in this ceremony were probably those of Roman soldiers and civilians, not of the Jewish defenders.
Unfortunately, the mistake in identity was not only the result of scholarly error; the story has all the earmarks of a deliberate attempt to avoid facing the evidence at hand.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I stand corrected - well; heavy duty hair splitting would still allow her an out.
One needs to be able to see past one's own prejudice and preconceptions before exegesis even begins to become possible. Nothing in her posts suggests that she has that capacity, nor even a hint of desire to be even-handed.
I have a collection of sayings from various scientists to that effect:
- "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." --Francis Bacon in Book I of The Advancement of Learning 1605
- "I keep my theories on the tips of my fingers so that the merest breath of fact can blow them away." --Michael Faraday
- "I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as the facts are opposed to it." --Charles Darwin (who also wrote: "A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections - a mere heart of stone.")
- "Sit down before a fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing." --Thomas Henry Huxley
- "The hallmark of science is not the question 'Do I wish to believe this?' but the question 'What is the evidence?' It is this demand for evidence, this habit of cultivated skepticism, that is most characteristic of the scientific way of thought." --Douglas Futuyma
- "A scientist should every morning eat one of his favorite theories for breakfast." --Konrad Lorenz
- "Any real systematist [or scientist in general] has to be ready to heave all that he or she believes in, consider it crap, and move on, in the face of new evidence." --Mark Norell (in his Unearthing the Dragon)
- "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day." --Carl Sagan
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI stand corrected - well; heavy duty hair splitting would still allow her an out.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Real places and historically attested individuals and events are mentioned but there is very little history in the Bibel
That depends on what you infer by "Most Christians".
And how are you broadly defining prophecy?
Once again it is not about veracity or dishonesty it concerns assessing the various texts [especially those of the Hebrew bible] within their socio-religious and historical context.
However, if you are asking do I believe some individuals lived for hundreds of years, or that the entire globe was covered by a flood, or that a dead body was resurrected three days after death, or that men got bodily taken up into the heavens, then the answer is No.
Shakespeare's works are purely literary.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
In short, according to your assessment, the Bible is nothing better than historical fiction.
Originally posted by tabibito View Postimply. In personal contacts over a wide range of denominations and circumstances, almost all Christians that I have encountered, with some few being persuaded that there are errors only after they have been required to actually answer reading comprehension questions based on the texts. However, it does seem that some are immune to their own capacity for logic.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAny information imparted directly by God.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostOften, but not restricted to, information about future events.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostMuch of which is based firmly in pure speculation.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe Genesis accounts are in all probability largely folklore, with some records becoming more probable from the time of Abraham.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostOnce Joshua's time is introduced
Originally posted by tabibito View PostI take it as probably accurate pending evidence to the contrary. As for people living for hundreds of years, I don't see any particular impediment to the possibility even from a purely naturalistic standpoint.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhich your claims about the Bible indicate is what you consider the Bible to be. Nothing historical, nothing actual, just enough of a nod to history to perhaps allow it to be considered, at best, historical fiction.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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[QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1344226]
In other words those of your personal acquaintance.
Or indeed any other particular deities.
Israelite oracles and prophets formed part of the contemporary religious and social context; as was the case in many other cultures and religious systems.
It is based on sound scholarly principles.
Concerning Abraham, outside of the biblical texts we have no extraneous information whatsoever.
How do you precisely date the supposed period of Joshua? The archaeological evidence is not conclusive and is still a matter of considerable historical contention.
As with the existence of Abraham and the occurrence of the Exodus, as depicted in the OT account, we have no confirmative evidence for either the purported event or any such individuals.
You are welcome to suspend disbelief. However, this technique of attributing extended longevity to individual characters was not unknown in ancient near eastern literature e.g. the Sumerian King Lists.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt is good to see your schoolboy adulation once again in action.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHowever, as no one has ever disputed Yadin's competence I am not entirely sure why you consider that an own goal has occurred.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostWhat is interesting is that you only emphasised a few words that supported your fan-worship and ignored the more pertinent section of that first quote.
Maybe you should have picked a source that didn't engage in such fan-worship.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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