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Wealth and salvation in Mark 10.17-22

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Still, I love it when people who believe the Bible is nonsense try to explain to us what the Bible says.
    Ah now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain.
    1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
    "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Ah now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain.
      That is a rather inaccurate statement.

      I do not believe that the texts in the Bible as they have come down to us are inerrant and "the word of God" as some here do.

      Nor do I believe the alleged miracles.

      However, the Bible as a collection of texts plays a very important part of Western civilisation and for that reason alone those texts are worthy of study within their contemporary socio-religious and historical contexts.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        That is a rather inaccurate statement.
        On reflection, I will grant that my statement was somewhat hyperbolic. You merely treat any thought that it might have veracity with disdain - and the people who consider it to have veracity with open contempt.

        I do not believe that the texts in the Bible as they have come down to us are inerrant and "the word of God" as some here do.
        Most Christians don't hold the view that the Bible is inerrant. The fact that it contains errors is easily demonstrated. The record itself assigns complete accuracy only to prophecy, as broadly defined.

        Nor do I believe the alleged miracles.
        Likewise prophecies, which is to say that you assign no veracity to the Biblical record.

        However, the Bible as a collection of texts plays a very important part of Western civilisation and for that reason alone those texts are worthy of study within their contemporary socio-religious and historical contexts.
        So you assign it a significance roughly on a par with Shakespeare's works.
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
        "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

        Comment



        • Nothing beats reading an own goal with my morning bacon
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          [...]

          https://www.baslibrary.org/biblical-...-review/24/6/3
          On July 7, 1969, with due solemnity, the earthly remains of the last defenders of Masada were buried near the foot of the Roman ramp leading up to the site. The chief chaplain of the Israeli army, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, officiated. The dead were buried with full military honors, as befitted those who had withstood a Roman siege for three years nearly 2,000 years ago (70–73 A.D.). Various dignitaries, including Menachem Begin, who later became prime minister and signed the Camp David accords, attended. Yigael Yadin, Israel’s most illustrious archaeologist and the excavator of Masada, read from the final speech of Eleazar Ben Yair, commander of the Jewish defenders, as recorded by the first-century A.D. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.

          Such pomp would be all well and good were it not for one problem: Most of the skeletons buried in this ceremony were probably those of Roman soldiers and civilians, not of the Jewish defenders.

          Unfortunately, the mistake in identity was not only the result of scholarly error; the story has all the earmarks of a deliberate attempt to avoid facing the evidence at hand.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Ah now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain.
            oh?

            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
            Well let's face it you believe in other things I also consider to be nonsense.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              I do not think I have ever stated that "the Bible" is nonsense although the texts are often contradictory.

              However, to understand why those contradictions occur requires more than just reading one's translation and assuming it to be the "word of God".
              But you're so incredibly batty about so much else... there is absolutely no reason to trust you to exegete Scripture.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                On reflection, I will grant that my statement was somewhat hyperbolic.
                Why do you consider your statement "Ah now - she never claims it is nonsense ... she always uses synonymous words and terms to express her belief that it is worthy of no more than utter disdain" was hyperbolic?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                You merely treat any thought that it might have veracity with disdain - and the people who consider it to have veracity with open contempt.
                Real places and historically attested individuals and events are mentioned but there is very little history in the Bibel

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Most Christians don't hold the view that the Bible is inerrant.
                That depends on what you infer by "Most Christians".

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The fact that it contains errors is easily demonstrated.
                What errors do you see in the Bible?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                The record itself assigns complete accuracy only to prophecy, as broadly defined.
                And how are you broadly defining prophecy?

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Likewise prophecies, which is to say that you assign no veracity to the Biblical record.
                Once again it is not about veracity or dishonesty it concerns assessing the various texts [especially those of the Hebrew bible] within their socio-religious and historical context.

                However, if you are asking do I believe some individuals lived for hundreds of years, or that the entire globe was covered by a flood, or that a dead body was resurrected three days after death, or that men got bodily taken up into the heavens, then the answer is No.

                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                So you assign it a significance roughly on a par with Shakespeare's works.
                Shakespeare's works are purely literary.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  oh?
                  I stand corrected - well; heavy duty hair splitting would still allow her an out.

                  there is absolutely no reason to trust you to exegete Scripture.
                  One needs to be able to see past one's own prejudice and preconceptions before exegesis even begins to become possible. Nothing in her posts suggests that she has that capacity, nor even a hint of desire to be even-handed.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                  "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Nothing beats reading an own goal with my morning bacon
                    It is good to see your schoolboy adulation once again in action.

                    However, as no one has ever disputed Yadin's competence I am not entirely sure why you consider that an own goal has occurred.

                    What is interesting is that you only emphasised a few words that supported your fan-worship and ignored the more pertinent section of that first quote.

                    On July 7, 1969, with due solemnity, the earthly remains of the last defenders of Masada were buried near the foot of the Roman ramp leading up to the site. The chief chaplain of the Israeli army, Rabbi Shlomo Goren, officiated. The dead were buried with full military honors, as befitted those who had withstood a Roman siege for three years nearly 2,000 years ago (70–73 A.D.). Various dignitaries, including Menachem Begin, who later became prime minister and signed the Camp David accords, attended. Yigael Yadin, Israel’s most illustrious archaeologist and the excavator of Masada, read from the final speech of Eleazar Ben Yair, commander of the Jewish defenders, as recorded by the first-century A.D. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus.

                    Such pomp would be all well and good were it not for one problem: Most of the skeletons buried in this ceremony were probably those of Roman soldiers and civilians, not of the Jewish defenders.

                    Unfortunately, the mistake in identity was not only the result of scholarly error; the story has all the earmarks of a deliberate attempt to avoid facing the evidence at hand
                    .

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      I stand corrected - well; heavy duty hair splitting would still allow her an out.



                      One needs to be able to see past one's own prejudice and preconceptions before exegesis even begins to become possible. Nothing in her posts suggests that she has that capacity, nor even a hint of desire to be even-handed.
                      In that way it is similar to science where one must follow the evidence to where it leads if you really want the truth.

                      I have a collection of sayings from various scientists to that effect:

                      • "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." --Francis Bacon in Book I of The Advancement of Learning 1605
                      • "I keep my theories on the tips of my fingers so that the merest breath of fact can blow them away." --Michael Faraday
                      • "I have steadily endeavored to keep my mind free so as to give up any hypothesis, however much beloved, as soon as the facts are opposed to it." --Charles Darwin (who also wrote: "A scientific man ought to have no wishes, no affections - a mere heart of stone.")
                      • "Sit down before a fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing." --Thomas Henry Huxley
                      • "The hallmark of science is not the question 'Do I wish to believe this?' but the question 'What is the evidence?' It is this demand for evidence, this habit of cultivated skepticism, that is most characteristic of the scientific way of thought." --Douglas Futuyma
                      • "A scientist should every morning eat one of his favorite theories for breakfast." --Konrad Lorenz
                      • "Any real systematist [or scientist in general] has to be ready to heave all that he or she believes in, consider it crap, and move on, in the face of new evidence." --Mark Norell (in his Unearthing the Dragon)
                      • "In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day." --Carl Sagan


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        I stand corrected - well; heavy duty hair splitting would still allow her an out.
                        And neither of us would be even the least bit surprised if she commenced therewith.

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Real places and historically attested individuals and events are mentioned but there is very little history in the Bibel
                          In short, according to your assessment, the Bible is nothing better than historical fiction.

                          That depends on what you infer by "Most Christians".
                          imply. In personal contacts over a wide range of denominations and circumstances, almost all Christians that I have encountered, with some few being persuaded that there are errors only after they have been required to actually answer reading comprehension questions based on the texts. However, it does seem that some are immune to their own capacity for logic.

                          And how are you broadly defining prophecy?
                          Any information imparted directly by God. Often, but not restricted to, information about future events.

                          Once again it is not about veracity or dishonesty it concerns assessing the various texts [especially those of the Hebrew bible] within their socio-religious and historical context.
                          Much of which is based firmly in pure speculation.

                          However, if you are asking do I believe some individuals lived for hundreds of years, or that the entire globe was covered by a flood, or that a dead body was resurrected three days after death, or that men got bodily taken up into the heavens, then the answer is No.
                          The Genesis accounts are in all probability largely folklore, with some records becoming more probable from the time of Abraham. Once Joshua's time is introduced, I take it as probably accurate pending evidence to the contrary. As for people living for hundreds of years, I don't see any particular impediment to the possibility even from a purely naturalistic standpoint.

                          Shakespeare's works are purely literary.
                          Which your claims about the Bible indicate is what you consider the Bible to be. Nothing historical, nothing actual, just enough of a nod to history to perhaps allow it to be considered, at best, historical fiction.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                          "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            In short, according to your assessment, the Bible is nothing better than historical fiction.
                            Given the various Bible texts as we have them, that is not entirely correct. We know that some real places, incidents, and individuals are mentioned because they are cross-referenced from other sources. However, I doubt anyone would allege that Ruth, Esther, or Jonah were actual historical figures.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            imply. In personal contacts over a wide range of denominations and circumstances, almost all Christians that I have encountered, with some few being persuaded that there are errors only after they have been required to actually answer reading comprehension questions based on the texts. However, it does seem that some are immune to their own capacity for logic.
                            In other words those of your personal acquaintance.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Any information imparted directly by God.
                            Or indeed any other particular deities.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Often, but not restricted to, information about future events.
                            Israelite oracles and prophets formed part of the contemporary religious and social context; as was the case in many other cultures and religious systems.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Much of which is based firmly in pure speculation.
                            It is based on sound scholarly principles.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            The Genesis accounts are in all probability largely folklore, with some records becoming more probable from the time of Abraham.
                            Concerning Abraham, outside of the biblical texts we have no extraneous information whatsoever.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Once Joshua's time is introduced
                            How do you precisely date the supposed period of Joshua? The archaeological evidence is not conclusive and is still a matter of considerable historical contention. As with the existence of Abraham and the occurrence of the Exodus, as depicted in the OT account, we have no confirmative evidence for either the purported event or any such individuals.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            I take it as probably accurate pending evidence to the contrary. As for people living for hundreds of years, I don't see any particular impediment to the possibility even from a purely naturalistic standpoint.
                            You are welcome to suspend disbelief. However, this technique of attributing extended longevity to individual characters was not unknown in ancient near eastern literature e.g. the Sumerian King Lists.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            Which your claims about the Bible indicate is what you consider the Bible to be. Nothing historical, nothing actual, just enough of a nod to history to perhaps allow it to be considered, at best, historical fiction.
                            That is an inept parallel.. Shakespeare was writing within a known historical context. The figures of Abraham, Joshua, Jacob etc would appear to be outside of any exact historical period. Their chronology is largely indeterminate and we have no precise dating evidence for them, unlike the attested life of Shakespeare
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=Hypatia_Alexandria;n1344226]

                              In other words those of your personal acquaintance.
                              Not only, but also.

                              Or indeed any other particular deities.
                              That goes without saying.

                              Israelite oracles and prophets formed part of the contemporary religious and social context; as was the case in many other cultures and religious systems.
                              A fact that by no means discredits any particular one of them.

                              It is based on sound scholarly principles.
                              That might depend on who is defining scholarly.

                              Concerning Abraham, outside of the biblical texts we have no extraneous information whatsoever.
                              Perhaps; just another Semitic itinerant goatherd, of interest only to his kin.

                              How do you precisely date the supposed period of Joshua? The archaeological evidence is not conclusive and is still a matter of considerable historical contention.
                              Just why is it necessary to provide a precise date? The dates that are relevant are the fall of Jericho, and a (not necessarily more than minor) crimp in Egypt's military strength, both of which occurred within roughly the same time frame.

                              As with the existence of Abraham and the occurrence of the Exodus, as depicted in the OT account, we have no confirmative evidence for either the purported event or any such individuals.
                              If the archaeological evidence is taken into account, there is POSSIBLE evidence for the exodus. Biblical scholars do claim the exodus occurred centuries after the claims made in the Bible and in the Samaritan calendar, though there is some minor discrepancy between the MT chronology and the Samaritan.

                              You are welcome to suspend disbelief. However, this technique of attributing extended longevity to individual characters was not unknown in ancient near eastern literature e.g. the Sumerian King Lists.
                              Surely you're not saying that similar accounts are necessarily proof of error.
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω
                              "It's bigger inside" might work for a TARDIS - it doesn't work for a bronze sea.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                It is good to see your schoolboy adulation once again in action.
                                Even your own source refers to the man you sought to hand wave off as not being any sort of expert refers to him as "Israel’s most illustrious archaeologist"

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                However, as no one has ever disputed Yadin's competence I am not entirely sure why you consider that an own goal has occurred.
                                Yes you did. Repeatedly. All because he had the temerity to disagree with the pronouncement from on high given by the faux historian hausfrau concerning Masada. You sought to disparge him for no other reason. And when it is shown that he was widely regarded as being the leading authority regarding Israeli archaeological sites you clumsily shifted into pretending I was engaging in hero worship hoping to distract attention away from yet another H_A faceplant.

                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                What is interesting is that you only emphasised a few words that supported your fan-worship and ignored the more pertinent section of that first quote.
                                That was the part that collapses your attempts to portray him as some fumbling idiot babbling about something he knew nothing about. Your own source called him as "Israel's most illustrious archaeologist and excavator of Masada."

                                Maybe you should have picked a source that didn't engage in such fan-worship.






                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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