Joshua's long day

[rogue06]

Not at all. I think you ignore monsters like that at your peril.

Nobody could have told by your initial reaction.

Ah, yes. The same old tired trio of paranoid, sociopathic, communist dictators, that the pious always wave around when trying to show atheists are, given half a chance, Godless killers.

That sure looked like an attempt at a summary dismissal, don't you agree?



I'll get back to the rest of the post hopefully tomorrow morning as I'm going to be on the phone most of this afternoon

[Christianbookworm]

I don't think ideological murderers post on tweb. Maybe some evil forum in the Dark Web to plan their wicked schemes to murder anyone with a different worldview?

[Markus River]

Unless you intend to attack the accounts of Caesar's assassination for the same reason, you ought to refrain from accusing the Gospels of being "comically contradictory."

Okay. The accounts of Caesar’s assassination are comically contradictory. There, that’s the so called “empty tomb” dealt with.

Not explicitly, but Paul mentioned that Jesus was buried and rose on the third day, and since the Jewish and Christian concept of "resurrection" precluded the idea of leaving a rotting carcass behind, it's safe to assume that Paul's mention of Christ's burial is independent evidence that the body disappeared.

Or, as was massively more likely, he was simply cast into a common, unmarked grave. As per the common Roman practice when disposing of the bodies of executed insurrectionists.

So? The Gospels appear to be rather independent where this portion of the story is concerned (as if they were copying each other, they would have papered over or harmonized the apparent discrepancies), so we appear to have four distinct historical documents referring to a historical personage, and no reason to doubt that he existed.

So? Paul never mentions a tomb, and any mention he made of a risen Jesus is spoilt somewhat by the unknown location of Jesus grave. Which is unsurprising given Roman internment practices.

Mark’s story, written approx. CE 66-70, was the most mundane, never called Jesus “God” or claimed that he existed prior to his earthly life, apparently believed that he had a normal human parentage and birth, made no attempt to trace his ancestry back to King David or Adam, and originally had no post-resurrection appearances. The other gospels merely copied and embellished large swathes of Mark, but then really let their imaginations fly with the alleged resurrection.

As for the elusive and enigmatic Joseph of Aramathea, never mentioned by Paul, he was used as a crude plot device by Mark, and copied gratefully by Mattew and Luke, for the sole purpose of introducing the notion of a tomb from which Jesus could nobly exit, to the great applause of the one. . . and two. . . . and three. . . and five plus women.

We usually don't get that lucky with ancient towns.

Especially when they probably never existed

Of course, since Eusibius identified it with Ramatha/Ramah from the OT, it would seem that your claim that there was "no mention of the town outside of the Gospels" is false. Places often had multiple names back then. Consider the number of different names Byzantium has had over the course of its existence.

Tut tut, Dave, exactly which 4th century Christian polemicist, did you think I was referring to in my exception? If you’re going to quote me, try and do it honestly.

Do your research, please.

About Houston Baptist University
Mission Statement
The mission of Houston Baptist University is to provide a learning experience that instills in students a passion for academic, spiritual and professional excellence as a result of our central confession, “Jesus Christ is Lord.”

No conflict of interest or benefit from confirmation bias there then. It seems more secularly focussed educational institutions take a somewhat different line in Roman corpse disposal practices.
Tell me, are you dishonest, or just ignorant?

And that he was buried. Which, combined with the fact that he rose, entails that the tomb was empty.

It’s only a “fact” because the “Bible tells me so”.

Except it was found during the reign of Constantine, and is "Christianitiy's most sacred location ever."

And yet it hardly ever features on any; all inclusive; "See the Christianity’s most sacred location EVER tours". Why is that? You guys would make a fortune. You haven’t mislaid it again have you?

Lacking a way to keep them alive without honoring their parents by preserving said parents' family lines, His hands were tied.

Your God, the creator of the universe, The Eternal Lord of Lords, the Alpha and Omega, infinitely powerful, infinitely loving, all knowing “had his hands tied”?
That’s not something a Christian apologist ever admits and it rather begs the question; who tied them?. Personally, given his supposed resources and his unwillingness to employ them, I think he just really enjoys burning children.

This begs the question of how dependent the Egyptians were on Hebrew slavery.

If they performed no useful function within the greater Egyptian economy, why bother having them at all. And even if they performed a minimal function, their sudden removal would have caused some degree of dislocation and been noted somewhere. But no notes, so probably no dislocation because no exodus.

Supernatural events are fairly mundane all over the world. It's one of the reasons why so many people are religious.

I can think of other, less flattering reasons.

I think I'm in a position to use a skeptical cliche. "What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence."

Then I offer you the whole body of scientific naturalism. Together with the scientific method which is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century (with notable practitioners in previous centuries). It involves careful observation, applying rigorous scepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation. It involves formulating hypotheses, via induction, based on such observations; experimental and measurement-based testing of deductions drawn from the hypotheses; and refinement (or elimination) of the hypotheses based on the experimental findings.
And you think that magic and supernaturalism are the default operators in the universe, and that naturalism is a conspiracy by non-believers to deny God? Is that your position?

[Markus River]

And when you get a moment, Google "New Age BS Generator".

You don't need a generator, Markus.

Oh dear, Sparko. Now if you'd said, "You don't need a New Age generator, Markus", that would have been funny. I might even have given you an amen. Though probably not. But your attempt just looks a bit, well, lame.

[DaveTheApologist]

Not to mention that the Armana letters show that around the time Jericho was destroyed, there was an apparent crimp in Egypt's military strength. During that same period, the Pharaoh suddenly and for no apparent reason dabbled with monotheism. All of which might seem to indicate that there could be something wrong with the majority consensus regarding the time of the exodus.

I agree, but I don't think Marky-boy is going to buy it.

[DaveTheApologist]

Okay. The accounts of Caesar’s assassination are comically contradictory. There, that’s the so called “empty tomb” dealt with.

Not so fast. There's the question of whether or not you actually doubt that Caesar was assassinated, whether Brutus was involved, whether Casca really struck the first blow, etc.

So? Paul never mentions a tomb, and any mention he made of a risen Jesus is spoilt somewhat by the unknown location of Jesus grave. Which is unsurprising given Roman internment practices.

You got evidence of these Roman internment practices? Because we do have evidence that at least one Jew who was crucified under Pilate wound up getting a decent burial.

Mark’s story, written approx. CE 66-70, was the most mundane, never called Jesus “God” or claimed that he existed prior to his earthly life, apparently believed that he had a normal human parentage and birth, made no attempt to trace his ancestry back to King David or Adam, and originally had no post-resurrection appearances. The other gospels merely copied and embellished large swathes of Mark, but then really let their imaginations fly with the alleged resurrection.

As for the elusive and enigmatic Joseph of Aramathea, never mentioned by Paul, he was used as a crude plot device by Mark, and copied gratefully by Mattew and Luke, for the sole purpose of introducing the notion of a tomb from which Jesus could nobly exit, to the great applause of the one. . . and two. . . . and three. . . and five plus women.

Bold claims. Not a lot of evidence for "embelishment." Not a lot of evidence that the earliest copies of Mark we have are even complete and undamaged. A lot of juicing of apparent contradictions. No engagement with my point about "discrepancies" not disproving hhistoric ity.

I give you a C-.

Tut tut, Dave, exactly which 4th century Christian polemicist, did you think I was referring to in my exception? If you’re going to quote me, try and do it honestly.

Do you have any concrete evidence that Eusibius was wrong?

About Houston Baptist University
Mission Statement
The mission of Houston Baptist University is to provide a learning experience that instills in students a passion for academic, spiritual and professional excellence as a result of our central confession, “Jesus Christ is Lord.”

No conflict of interest or benefit from confirmation bias there then. It seems more secularly focussed educational institutions take a somewhat different line in Roman corpse disposal practices.

I defy you to find one instance where their alleged "bias" influenced their treatment of the sources.

We could just as easily that the secular institutions are the biased ones, and we could fling accusations back and forth all day. Wouldn't change what the actual textual and archaeological evidence indicates - that Romans in general, and Pilate very specifically, allowed burial of crucified men.

It’s only a “fact” because the “Bible tells me so”.

Me: "Paul believed Jesus was buried. Paul also believed that Jesus rose from the dead. The combination of these beliefs entails an empty tomb."

You: "It'S tHe BiBlE, tHeReFoRe InVaLiD!"

Please stop making a fool of yourself.

And yet it hardly ever features on any; all inclusive; "See the Christianity’s most sacred location EVER tours". Why is that? You guys would make a fortune. You haven’t mislaid it again have you?

Except it does. There's a church built on top of it in the Christian Quarter of Jerusalem, and everything.

Your God, the creator of the universe, The Eternal Lord of Lords, the Alpha and Omega, infinitely powerful, infinitely loving, all knowing “had his hands tied”?
That’s not something a Christian apologist ever admits and it rather begs the question; who tied them?. Personally, given his supposed resources and his unwillingness to employ them, I think he just really enjoys burning children.

You do realize that sparing anyone would have, ipso facto, sent the wrong message in that society, right?

I suppose He could have just mind-raped everybody in the ANE into being more sensible about this sort of thing, then only killed the adults. But that doesn't seem much better than just killing the kids and making it up to them later.

If they performed no useful function within the greater Egyptian economy, why bother having them at all. And even if they performed a minimal function, their sudden removal would have caused some degree of dislocation and been noted somewhere. But no notes, so probably no dislocation because no exodus.

You're moving a bit fast there, chief. Slow down, you might hurt yourself at that speed.

I can think of other, less flattering reasons.

I'm sure you can. Doesn't change the fact that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of reliable miracle reports worldwide.

Then I offer you the whole body of scientific naturalism. [logorrheaic ode to the scientific method omitted]

I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. "Our contrived experiments can't find things that they wouldn't have been able to find even if said things existed, therefore we should reject the thousands of reliable reports of these things causing events" strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

And you think that magic and supernaturalism are the default operators in the universe, and that naturalism is a conspiracy by non-believers to deny God? Is that your position?

Nah, if it were a conspiracy, someone would have found a lie that actually made sense.

Naturalism is just what happens when you forget what you shoved under the carpet, and assume that you can clean what's under the carpet by using the same method you used to clean the rest of the house - ie, shoving things under the carpet.

[rogue06]

H_A was eviscerated making similar claims last summer or so. Care to start a separate thread where you can take your best shot?

I guess Markus River wasn't interested.

[Christianbookworm]

Only option for CPS in ancient times would be in heaven awaiting the final Ressurection. Sure, it would be less messy if they were taken like Enoch and Elijah, but God has some good reason for not doing that.

[Markus River]

I guess Markus River wasn't interested.

I was still on my seven year sabbatical from tWeb last summer, so I missed all the fun. Doubtless you and the other usual suspects piled into her with your customary grace and humility.

But there’s no need for a separate thread. This one is about an alleged miracle, and when Dave came out with his classic line; “We've demonstrated that the evidence for the Resurrection is as good as or better than the evidence for pretty much any other historical event of the same period”, How could any self-respecting new-atheist resist throwing it back?

[Markus River]

Not so fast. There's the question of whether or not you actually doubt that Caesar was assassinated, whether Brutus was involved, whether Casca really struck the first blow, etc.

I have no views on the matter, as historians of ancient Rome aren’t trying to sell me as fact, an unevidenced, convoluted and inconsistent tale of the supernatural.

You got evidence of these Roman internment practices? Because we do have evidence that at least one Jew who was crucified under Pilate wound up getting a decent burial.

Wow, Dave. You have a whole single example of a crucified Jew getting a decent burial? That’s clearly evidence that every crucified Jew, including of course, You Know Who, received a decent burial under the Romans.

It’s curious then, that Dr. Bart Ehrman, a renowned New Testament scholar, who focuses on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity, should categorically reject the story of the tomb, in favour of the typical Roman process of; humiliate, crucify, leave to rot and dump in a common grave.

Bold claims. Not a lot of evidence for "embelishment."

Quite a lot, actually.

Not a lot of evidence that the earliest copies of Mark we have are even complete and undamaged.

As you’d expect.

A lot of juicing of apparent contradictions. No engagement with my point about "discrepancies" not disproving hhistoric ity.

There’s nothing “apparent” about the discrepancies, David. In Luke 24:49 the resurrected Jesus instructs his disciples to remain in the city of Jerusalem. In Matthew 28:10 Jesus instructs his disciples to hasten to Galilee. So which is it? They can’t both be correct. This isn’t some rounding error when counting the number of women in a tomb, it’s an irreconcilable contradiction.

And when you start counting up the irreconcilable contradictions in scripture, you start to wonder; “Is any of this true?”

Do you have any concrete evidence that Eusibius was wrong?

Do you and Eusibius have any concrete evidence that Eusibius is right?
If you want your tomb, Arimathea has to form part of your assertion, so the burden of evidential support is, as ever, yours to provide. Not mine to debunk.

I defy you to find one instance where their alleged "bias" influenced their treatment of the sources.
We could just as easily that the secular institutions are the biased ones, and we could fling accusations back and forth all day. Wouldn't change what the actual textual and archaeological evidence indicates - that Romans in general, and Pilate very specifically, allowed burial of crucified men.

Romans, in general did not allow, and Pilate specifically did once allow burial of a crucified man. But that man wasn’t Jesus, was it. And you have no evidence to the contrary.

Me: "Paul believed Jesus was buried. Paul also believed that Jesus rose from the dead. The combination of these beliefs entails an empty tomb."

I see, Paul “believed” because the Bible tells you so, that Paul believed. Well you’ve convinced me. Where do I sign up for my Jesus Saves tee shirt?
Alternatively, in not using the term, entombed, he might have believed that an animated corpse rose from a common grave, which historically, is what he might have expected.

You: "It'S tHe BiBlE, tHeReFoRe InVaLiD!"
Please stop making a fool of yourself.

It doesn’t have to be invalid, simply because it’s in the Bible. It becomes invalid when you use the Bible as the only evidence to prove the truthfulness of claims in the Bible. All the more so, when one or more such claims are mutually exclusive. And of course, there are so many more.
Perhaps find a YouTube video explaining in simple terms how circular reasoning works and why it’s probably not a good idea to use it.

Except it does. There's a church built on top of it in the Christian Quarter of Jerusalem, and everything.

No, I mean the actual tomb and the evidence that this tomb is authentic. And not just some convenient hole in which to nail your newly delivered Christian credentials.

You do realize that sparing anyone would have, ipso facto, sent the wrong message in that society, right?

I love it that you are still trying to justify your God’s actions in immolating two cities of infants and children. And that he really had no choice in the matter.

“I had to burn those cities, and their children, in order to save them” says unrepentant God.

Maybe God should be spoken of in the same breath as your favourite atheist trio; Stalin, Mao and Kim.

I'm sure you can. Doesn't change the fact that we have hundreds, if not thousands, of reliable miracle reports worldwide.

Bovine scatology. You don't.

I don't see how that has anything to do with anything. "Our contrived experiments can't find things that they wouldn't have been able to find even if said things existed, therefore we should reject the thousands of reliable reports of these things causing events" strikes me as a bit of a stretch.

Nobody ever got poor, underestimating the gullibility and credulousness of God-fearing folk.

[Christianbookworm]

God cacan raise the dead to life and owns us. Big difference.

[tabibito]

There’s nothing “apparent” about the discrepancies, David. In Luke 24:49 the resurrected Jesus instructs his disciples to remain in the city of Jerusalem. In Matthew 28:10 Jesus instructs his disciples to hasten to Galilee. So which is it? They can’t both be correct. This isn’t some rounding error when counting the number of women in a tomb, it’s an irreconcilable contradiction.

Even assuming that there is an irreconcilable contradiction (on first face reading, there is), it remains that the contradiction would be in the fine detail: the content of a conversation reported at third hand.

And when you start counting up the irreconcilable contradictions in scripture, you start to wonder; “Is any of this true?”

After eliminating contradictions produced by hostile or careless readings, not so many.

[Sparko]

And when you get a moment, Google "New Age BS Generator".

Oh dear, Sparko. Now if you'd said, "You don't need a New Age generator, Markus", that would have been funny. I might even have given you an amen. Though probably not. But your attempt just looks a bit, well, lame.

I was referring to a BS generator, Markus
I think you have that quite well handled on your own.

I can see why you abandoned the Tektonics area, JP apparently handed you your rear end on a platter and you ran for the hills hiding out in threads like this one. Your objections and contradictions are kindergarten level atheism at best. Yawn.

Question: now that you see that Caesar's murder has contradictions, do you now doubt that he was killed or existed too?

[Markus River]

I was referring to a BS generator, Markus

Oh dear, time to explain the joke to the thicky.

I’m well aware of what you were trying to say, Wacko. That I post BS. Trouble is, it’s called a New Age BS Generator, because it generates meaningless, New Age style BS. So, unless you think that what I regularly post is, in the Deepak Chopra style, New Age, then, because you left it out, your highly amusing comment, “You don’t need a generator, Markus” rather falls flat on its face in the midden.

Better luck next time.

I can see why you abandoned the Tektonics area, JP apparently handed you your rear end on a platter and you ran for the hills hiding out in threads like this one.

I can’t help but feel flattered that you took the time and trouble to root through my old posts. Kinda gives one a warm feeling all over. You can rest assured I haven’t bothered to look through any of yours.

Of course it was a long time ago, 7 years in fact. That you think I’ve been hiding all that time is pure comedy gold.

BTW, tell JP he can come back through the wardrobe from his rather unpleasant, tech tonics Narnia any time he likes, and to bring any of his little coterie of cheer leading minions with him.

Talking of which, I see Christianbookworm pops up from time to time for a drive by one-liner, but without the other children to provide emotional support, she doesn’t seem to like engaging.

Your objections and contradictions are kindergarten level atheism at best. Yawn.

It’s what I do best. And if you think any of what I post is for your benefit, you’re even thicker than I thought.

Question: now that you see that Caesar's murder has contradictions, do you now doubt that he was killed or existed too?

Caesar’s death isn’t being sold as the word of God?

[Markus River]

Nobody could have told by your initial reaction.

Try a little contextual analysis. Isn’t that your mantra?

That sure looked like an attempt at a summary dismissal, don't you agree?

I agree, there was indeed a summary dismissal. But it was of the tedious way the pious always try to wave those sociopathic killers in atheist’s faces. Not of the crimes against humanity they perpetrated to maintain their collective grip on power.