Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Maybe he is just treating you like you treat him and others when they ask YOU for supporting evidence. Hmm?
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Maybe he is just treating you like you treat him and others when they ask YOU for supporting evidence. Hmm?
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There are many colloquial usages in English (and I would hazard, almost any language) which do not conform with rigidly formal definitions. Demanding that an entire culture conform to your concepts of what is proper won't achieve anything more than continued misunderstandings and pointless conflicts.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe ruins of Great Zimbabwe were attributed to Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs etc. Virtually anyone and everyone that someone could dream up -- except the indigenous people. That was still going on when I was in school.
As I wrote this is desperate back pedalling on your part from an initial ridiculously over-extended and generalised statement that you cannot defend.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
It is erroneous and is an excuse for slovenly writing and thinking.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Everything: Just another sweeping generalisation that is commonly used and generally accepted as not being intended to mean literally everything.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There seems to be at least some support for Rogue's assertion.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
This "Everything" has now been narrowed down to one site built between the eleventh and fourteenth centuries CE. Nor, given its dates, can we entirely eradicate influences from external civilisations in the construction of this city complex as we have no written records from this culture. Furthermore, the idea for building large cities in stone does not appear to have been copied by other indigenous African societies.
That does not diminish the complexity and organisation of the society that built this huge city but it is not of the same "vintage" as the pyramids or the temple at Luxor.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I asked for the names of archaeologists and Egyptologists in support of what you initially alleged ""Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd your repeated insistence that I referred to Wilson as an explorer or archaeologist confirms you have comprehension difficulties.
You gave me a work by Wilson who was neither. I simply pointed out that what you had provided was not what I requested.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There seems to be at least some support for Rogue's assertion.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
Interestingly, the first Europeans to see it, Portuguese explorers in the 16th cent., appear to have taken it for granted that it was a native construction. That changed when the German explorer Karl Munch came across it in the 19th cent and who opened the flood gates to the speculation that someone, anyone, other than the native people must have built it.
Hmm. 1870s to 1950s. Sounds like generations to me.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
And who are the accredited archaeologists who have made those claims?
Your citation of a work that includes the likes of Graham Hancock in its bibliography does not inspire confidence.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAs you self-evidently have access to this work why did you not just type out some of those names in reply to my question?
Ah and now we are back-pedalling from our initial categorical assertion that:
"Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe ruins of Great Zimbabwe were attributed to Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs etc. Virtually anyone and everyone that someone could dream up -- except the indigenous people. That was still going on when I was in school.
Your citation of a work that includes the likes of Graham Hancock in its bibliography does not inspire confidence.
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