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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Did you pay any attention to page 783? Action in Rome against the Jews (and other groups) coincided with political instability. And the paper doesn't seem to deal with events BCE. It may be that Williams is closer to the truth than others, but she also admits that much of her assessment is based on reading between the lines.
    You wrote Persecution by the Jews.

    How did the subsequent list of incidents relate to the Jews persecuting anyone?

    As for Williams, what precise comment by her leads you to remark that she "admits that much of her assessment is based on reading between the lines"? [/QUOTE]
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



      Might I suggest you extend your reading beyond Wiki articles and what you can glean from Google Books and actually read some academic works on these topics?
      Ironic coming from someone who just linked to something available online. But then being a hypocrite is the one thing you do best.

      I actually wished I had done as you said in that I would have found out about the second Christian writer in the second century who verified that pagans were calling Christians cross worshipers much sooner than I did. And wiki apparently has a list of Christian books written during the period that stress the importance of the cross to Christians during the period in question. Both bits would have made my initial postings more thorough and conclusive.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        It is relevant to the discussion about the use (or not) of the cross in early Christian customs, and whether a hiatus in the public display of the cross in connexion with Christianity is possible.

        And yes - it is sourced from the article in Christianity today. Given that the post was addressed to Rogue, context was enough to establish the fact.
        There is no evidence that the cross was publicly displayed prior to the fourth century. And as noted the CT article is somewhat "economical with the actualité".
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Ironic coming from someone who just linked to something available online.
          Well there are always reference libraries but ordering papers can take time. Hence if they are already available online they are easier to access.

          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I actually wished I had done as you said in that I would have found out about the second Christian writer in the second century who verified that pagans were calling Christians cross worshipers much sooner than I did. And wiki apparently has a list of Christian books written during the period that stress the importance of the cross to Christians during the period in question.
          To what precise period are you referring?

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            AFAICT, in spite of some minor issues being raised, there is not one radiocarbon expert who has ever said the results were unreliable.

            And as Faber notes, the Bible is very explicit about there being two separate cloths -- one for the head and another for a body -- which the Shroud of Turin contradicts. Moreover, IIRC there is no evidence that the Jews ever wrapped the deceased in the manner of the shroud, much less in a cloth using a weave that didn't become popular until centuries later.

            As for more recent research, from 2018: Forensic research (once again) suggests the Shroud of Turin is fake and Shroud of Turin Is a Fake, Bloodstains Suggest
            Yes there are. The problem is in the sampling and both radiocarbon dating experts and chemical experts - including Dr. Ray Rogers who was on STURP and had samples to test the hypothesis on - have in fact expressed concern about the resultant dates.

            Here's the abstract. (it's a pdf). Bedford and Marino authored the original paper. - here's the whole danged list. You find it - I think it's in the Bedford - Marino section but it could be buried in the Marino papers - they've been busy since the last time I read their work. Really busy...

            Before his death, Rogers authored a peer reviewed, published paper on the radiocarbon studies. Rogers was an atheist and was convinced that the image could be explained by chemical means - and that the radiocarbon dates were invalid.



            The presence of significant amounts of cotton in the sample area prove pretty conclusively that the sample was taken from a repair - which makes sense because match dyeing linen is a bear where cotton is much, much easier. Textile experts sent only photographs (from the original STURP collection) of the area either agreed that there was a reweave or, in one instance, declined to say. (That's from Bedford and Marino's original paper.)

            And no, the shroud does NOT contradict the Scriptural description - start here.

            Textile analysis - start here. Seriously, that's the stupidest objection ever - it's a linen twill. It'd be far more fantastical to believe that no one in the First Century could weave one. A three year old can weave a basic twill.

            And really, NBC? That's a 'scientific' source?


            Shroud.com is run by Barry Schwortz who was on STURP as the lead photographer. It's a gold mine of everything scientific shroud related - including the negative studies. It links directly to the papers where available and contains ALL the STURP materials.

            I caught a glimpse of the comment you made about STURP - it's utterly untrue. Rogers was an atheist. Schwortz is a Jew as was Adler (who didn't go to Turin but did do the blood chemical analysis - paper is available but the lecture is also on YouTube). STURP was Jackson's brainchild after a couple guys put a picture of the image through an imaging machine at the JPL - and watched it do what no photograph ever did - show a three D response. Jackson was a Christian but the team was not all Christian and certainly wasn't organized by the Catholic church. Unless you think Jet Propulsion Laboratories and Los Alamos along with just about every other prestigious scientific lab in the 1970's was run by the church - here's the team list from shroudofturin.com.


            STURP photographed the entire Shroud in multiple ways - all those pictures are available. What Bedford did was to look at the spectrographs - and wanna guess what corner doesn't look like the others? Rogers, in a phone conversation with Schwortz, was convinced that the radiocarbon dating was fine and that Bedford was just nuts. Challenged by Schwortz, he pulled his samples to disprove Bedford - then called Schwortz five hours later to say that Bedford might be right (he later proved that she was).

            FYI - Schwortz is still living and still manages the site. He is rather proud of the fact that shroud.com predates Google.


            Argh... I just wasted an hour on this. Thanks Tabitio. And y'all wonder why I don't come as much anymore.

            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

            Quill Sword

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              There is no evidence that the cross was publicly displayed prior to the fourth century. And as noted the CT article is somewhat "economical with the actualité".
              Obvious H_A is right. Many pagans all across the Mediterranean possessed a special psychic power during the first few centuries A.D. that allowed them to ascertain without ever seeing one that Christians venerated the cross since the very start of Christianity.

              Just as obviously, when Christians became predominant they started killing off the psychic pagans under the guise of pogroms against Jews, Crusades, Inquisitions, and witch hunts. That's why they aren't around today.

              That's what really happened.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Well there are always reference libraries but ordering papers can take time. Hence if they are already available online they are easier to access.
                Rules for thee, excuses for me.

                Hypocrite.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Rules for thee, excuses for me.

                  Hypocrite.
                  I have never criticised anyone for sourcing online information.

                  However, when my interlocutor relies primarily on Wiki articles along with what he can glean from sections provided by Google Books or general online sites I recommend he actually undertakes some serious reading regarding the topic upon he affects to have some in-depth knowledge.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    I have never criticised anyone for sourcing online information.

                    However, when my interlocutor relies primarily on Wiki articles along with what he can glean from sections provided by Google Books or general online sites I recommend he actually undertakes some serious reading regarding the topic upon he affects to have some in-depth knowledge.
                    I guess you forgot the time I looked up a bunch of your sources and found all but two were available online, hypocrite.

                    And your recent pretending to have a magazine article that it was glaringly obvious you never saw.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I guess you forgot the time I looked up a bunch of your sources and found all but two were available online, hypocrite.

                      And your recent pretending to have a magazine article that it was glaringly obvious you never saw.
                      So much of what she posts seems like copy/pasta, and, yeah, I found a number of examples to prove it.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        I guess you forgot the time I looked up a bunch of your sources and found all but two were available online, hypocrite.

                        And your recent pretending to have a magazine article that it was glaringly obvious you never saw.
                        Not to mention that it usually is an advantage, as the source can be checked without any difficulty - and of course, the procedure is perfectly acceptable for university study provided it isn't overdone. On a site like this, there is no valid reason to criticise the practice.

                        So - some sort of virtue signalling in H_A's objections?
                        Last edited by tabibito; 12-14-2021, 09:54 AM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          So much of what she posts seems like copy/pasta, and, yeah, I found a number of examples to prove it.
                          One of the clues is when she has wall of text formatting codes in her reply. I even made a screen capture of it once

                          And I'm very open about using online sources -- even to the point if I have the book and it is also online I'll use the online version which I can copy directly from rather than having to write something out by hand.

                          As I explained previously:

                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                          I've played Dungeons and Dragons on and off since the 80s. What does that have to do with anything? Well, nowadays it is primarily online when I play. Not video games, but with other players I know. Generally I end up "DMing" (running the game) largely because everyone likes the adventures I usually run. Some times I have to slap something together quick and having every issue of "Dungeon" magazine (a magazine that printed short adventures for the game) printed and several dozen old adventure modules to "borrow" pieces from still allows for an enjoyable time.

                          So what does that have to do with anything? When I'm borrowing bits and pieces from multiple adventures I don't dig out the various modules and magazine issues I had in mind to use. I go online to various sites (The Trove is a current favorite) and download a pdf version from which I can copy and snip from bits from.

                          Why? Because it is so much easier than tediously writing out things by hand.

                          The exact same thing goes here whether I'm posting in Apologetics discussing theological matters or in Nat Sci discussing science. Unfortunately, most of my science texts that I rely on are too current to be found on the interwebz so when I quote from them I have to do so by hand.


                          Unfortunately, it appears my favorite online source for D&D material has been shut down.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Not to mention that it usually is an advantage, as the source can be checked without any difficulty - and of course, the procedure is perfectly acceptable for university study provided it isn't overdone. On a site like this, there is no valid reason to criticise the practice.

                            So - some sort of virtue signalling in H_A's objections?
                            Yup. That way others can see that you are accurately presenting the information and not selectively editing (if not wholly making up something) from a book that few people would have readily available.

                            It appears to be just one of the many things she finds to gripe about when she can't find anything else.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              I guess you forgot the time I looked up a bunch of your sources and found all but two were available online, hypocrite.
                              So what does that tell you?

                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              And your recent pretending to have a magazine article that it was glaringly obvious you never saw.
                              My opinion of your comments at the time is that you wanted a fight over Patrick Frank's article.

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Yup. That way others can see that you are accurately presenting the information and not selectively editing (if not wholly making up something) from a book that few people would have readily available.
                                You can always avail yourself of an inter-library loan copy of a text.

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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