Originally posted by rogue06
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
FWIU He is saying that the nutter Wilson listed other nutters who are archeologists and egyptianologists who agree with his work. That would be the list you are looking for. Or are you just doing your demanding stuff over and over trolling thing again?
However, the issue concerns what rogue06 initially claimed and his failure to substantiate that initial unequivocal comment.
His first statement included this, "Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations -- and some on the fringe still do."
That remark specified archaeologists "for generations". I simply wanted to know who those archaeologists might be.
However, in his reply to my question rogue06 shifted his position from that initial definitive statement where "Everything" [my emphasis] including the pyramids had "been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations" to something less emphatic.
He suggested that I avail myself of Wilson's book where I could "find a list in From Atlantis to the Sphinx by Colin Wilson of archaeologists and Egyptianologists who he says provide support to his notions." [My emphasis].
Suddenly rogue06 moved from his original definite statement whereby "Everything" [my emphasis again] has been dismissed as the work of indigenous peoples "by European explorers and archeologists for generations " to referencing Wilson's work wherein Wilson "says" i.e. claims that "archaeologists and Egyptianologists" are listed who "provide support to his notions." [My emphasis]
Do you see the difference between those two remarks by rogue06?
Now rogue06 has shifted his position once again and at the same time managed to redefine the world list [i.e. a series of names or other items written or printed together].
He now writes that Wilson does not provide those names "in a neat list but he brings them up at different points.". [Aside: I think perhaps the word[s] rogue06 might have been seeking are that Wilson "cites" or "references" certain individuals.]
However, that remark by rogue06 indicates that he has access to this work by Wilson which leaves the question, why could he not simply have typed out some of those names in his reply to my request?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot in a neat list but he brings them up at different points.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd it should be noted that Wilson, like so many other pseudoscientists, could very well be misrepresenting some of them. Particularly the more recent ones (the older ones IIRC are cited particularly because they advanced proposals that the local population didn't build them)
"Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Well it is lovely to see you coming along and supporting your pal [Tweb moderators remind me of the Jets in West Side Story "You got brothers around, you're a family man, You're never alone, you're never disconnected"].
However, the issue concerns what rogue06 initially claimed and his failure to substantiate that initial unequivocal comment.
His first statement included this, "Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations -- and some on the fringe still do."
That remark specified archaeologists "for generations". I simply wanted to know who those archaeologists might be.
However, in his reply to my question rogue06 shifted his position from that initial definitive statement where "Everything" [my emphasis] including the pyramids had "been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations" to something less emphatic.
He suggested that I avail myself of Wilson's book where I could "find a list in From Atlantis to the Sphinx by Colin Wilson of archaeologists and Egyptianologists who he says provide support to his notions." [My emphasis].
Suddenly rogue06 moved from his original definite statement whereby "Everything" [my emphasis again] has been dismissed as the work of indigenous peoples "by European explorers and archeologists for generations " to referencing Wilson's work wherein Wilson "says" i.e. claims that "archaeologists and Egyptianologists" are listed who "provide support to his notions." [My emphasis]
Do you see the difference between those two remarks by rogue06?
Now rogue06 has shifted his position once again and at the same time managed to redefine the world list [i.e. a series of names or other items written or printed together].
He now writes that Wilson does not provide those names "in a neat list but he brings them up at different points.". [Aside: I think perhaps the word[s] rogue06 might have been seeking are that Wilson "cites" or "references" certain individuals.]
However, that remark by rogue06 indicates that he has access to this work by Wilson which leaves the question, why could he not simply have typed out some of those names in his reply to my request?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAs you self-evidently have access to this work why did you not just type out some of those names in reply to my question?
Ah and now we are back-pedalling from our initial categorical assertion that:
"Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostYou really have some serious problems don't you? The type that medication just isn't helping."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThe ruins of Great Zimbabwe were attributed to Romans, Phoenicians, Arabs etc. Virtually anyone and everyone that someone could dream up -- except the indigenous people. That was still going on when I was in school.
Your citation of a work that includes the likes of Graham Hancock in its bibliography does not inspire confidence."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You made an emphatic claim and then desperately back-pedalled. Very amusing to watch.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAs you self-evidently have access to this work why did you not just type out some of those names in reply to my question?
Ah and now we are back-pedalling from our initial categorical assertion that:
"Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
And who are the accredited archaeologists who have made those claims?
Your citation of a work that includes the likes of Graham Hancock in its bibliography does not inspire confidence.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There seems to be at least some support for Rogue's assertion.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
Interestingly, the first Europeans to see it, Portuguese explorers in the 16th cent., appear to have taken it for granted that it was a native construction. That changed when the German explorer Karl Munch came across it in the 19th cent and who opened the flood gates to the speculation that someone, anyone, other than the native people must have built it.
Hmm. 1870s to 1950s. Sounds like generations to me.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd your repeated insistence that I referred to Wilson as an explorer or archaeologist confirms you have comprehension difficulties.
You gave me a work by Wilson who was neither. I simply pointed out that what you had provided was not what I requested."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I asked for the names of archaeologists and Egyptologists in support of what you initially alleged ""Everything from the pyramids to the ruins of Great Zimbabwe have been credited to everyone but the indigenous people by European explorers and archeologists for generations ." [My emphasis]
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There seems to be at least some support for Rogue's assertion.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ins-plundering
Karl Mauch: “I do not think that I am far wrong if I suppose that the ruin on the hill is a copy of Solomon’s Temple on Mount Moriah,” Mauch declared, “and the building in the plain a copy of the palace where the Queen of Sheba lived during her visit to Solomon.” He further stated that only a “civilised nation must once have lived there” – his racist implication unmistakeable.
Other European writers, also believing that Africans did not have the capacity to build anything of the significance of Great Zimbabwe, suggested it was built by Portuguese travellers, Arabs, Chinese or Persians. Another theory was that the site could have been the work of a southern African tribe of ancient Jewish heritage, the Lemba.
In 1905, however, the British archaeologist David Randall-MacIver concluded the ruins were medieval, and built by one or more of the local African Bantu peoples. His findings were confirmed by another British archaeologist, Gertrude Caton-Thompson, in 1929, and this remains the consensus today.
“How a powerful African empire built a kingdom that covered vast swaths of southern Africa is a source of pride for Zimbabweans – and something that colonial governments tried for a long time to undermine by linking this wondrous kingdom to the Phoenicians.”
This "Everything" has now been narrowed down to one site built between the eleventh and fourteenth centuries CE. Nor, given its dates, can we entirely eradicate influences from external civilisations in the construction of this city complex as we have no written records from this culture. Furthermore, the idea for building large cities in stone does not appear to have been copied by other indigenous African societies.
That does not diminish the complexity and organisation of the society that built this huge city but it is not of the same "vintage" as the pyramids or the temple at Luxor."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Everything: Just another sweeping generalisation that is commonly used and generally accepted as not being intended to mean literally everything."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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