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Representations and depictions of the deity

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

    Perilously. It's like why risk it huh?

    I also read somewhere that back in the formative years of Christianity that Christians didn't go around displaying the cross, as in pendants and such.
    The cross was not depicted because crucifixion was such a shameful death reserved for the lowest orders in society.

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      The cross was not depicted because crucifixion was such a shameful death reserved for the lowest orders in society.
      When did the church start openly displaying crosses?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Machinist View Post
        When did the church start openly displaying crosses?
        Earliest evidence is in the second century, and becoming more widespread throughout the third until it was basically the universal symbol in the fourth century[1]

        H_A presents one of the popular theories for why it wasn't used initially, but there are others including because it is gruesome. The simple fact is that we don't know why it wasn't adopted earlier or why it was adopted at all. Theories, yes. But nothing approaching certainty.





        1. at least in the orthodox Church. I really don't know about such groups as the Copts, or Assyrian Christian Church.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Earliest evidence is in the second century, and becoming more widespread throughout the third until it was basically the universal symbol in the fourth century[1]
          What sources are you citing?
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Finally remembered the name of the movie - "Dogma." I'm fairly sure the statue was purpose crafted for the show.
            IIRC the Buddy Christ figure was conceived by a committee formed by Cardinal Ignatius Glick, with a mandate to brighten up the rather dour persona of the catholic church. The biggest joke was having the Cardinal played by the late George Carlin, who was known as an outspoken atheist.

            When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
            - Anonymous

            When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
            “His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              What sources are you citing?
              Read any authoritative or accredited historical work charting the rise of the cross in Christianity. It's all there.

              Other than that, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Hippolytus among others. The Jewish Encyclopedia, John Stott's The Cross of Christ (primarily the 1st chapter) and this article from the Biblical Archaeological Society this summer.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Markus River View Post

                IIRC the Buddy Christ figure was conceived by a committee formed by Cardinal Ignatius Glick, with a mandate to brighten up the rather dour persona of the catholic church. The biggest joke was having the Cardinal played by the late George Carlin, who was known as an outspoken atheist.
                George was definitely an unbeliever but I doubt he would be among the New Atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins. If you ever listened to his impression of a classmate asking the can God create a rock so heavy that He can't lift it he makes him sound like a twit. I don't think he would have agreed with their sloppy arguments and need to attack straw men.

                I think that Carlin was more of the Bertrand Russell type, but with a scathing wit.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  The cross was not depicted because crucifixion was such a shameful death reserved for the lowest orders in society.
                  Yes, it would be somewhat equivalent to a person wearing a miniature electric chair on a necklace.

                  Quite amazing, then, that such a shameful symbol as "the cross" was so radically transformed.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Yes, it would be somewhat equivalent to a person wearing a miniature electric chair on a necklace.

                    Quite amazing, then, that such a shameful symbol as "the cross" was so radically transformed.
                    Stott offers an interesting idea as to why the cross was chosen when there were so many other potential symbols already in use in his The Cross of Christ but it is essentially just a good theory. Basically boils down to the rest representing various aspects of Jesus' life and ministry but they wanted to emphasize His death and resurrection and that was the best canidate

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Stott offers an interesting idea as to why the cross was chosen when there were so many other potential symbols already in use in his The Cross of Christ but it is essentially just a good theory. Basically boils down to the rest representing various aspects of Jesus' life and ministry but they wanted to emphasize His death and resurrection and that was the best canidate
                      Particularly, "the empty Cross".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • On the topic of representations of deity, I was wondering about the cross as a symbol. I guess the reason it's easy for protestants to accuse Orthodox folk and Catholics with idolatry is because symbols such as statues, icons and relics are representations of actual people...sentient beings.



                        I'm just wondering how a statue or icon becomes an object of worship. What is meant by the accusation that that these things are being worshipped?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Read any authoritative or accredited historical work charting the rise of the cross in Christianity. It's all there.

                          Other than that, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Hippolytus among others. The Jewish Encyclopedia, John Stott's The Cross of Christ (primarily the 1st chapter) and this article from the Biblical Archaeological Society this summer.
                          I see you have read the wiki entry on the Christian Cross but your reply did not actually address the question put by Machinist which was "When did the church start openly displaying crosses?"

                          The BAS article for which you you provided the link states the following:

                          Scholars believe that the first surviving public image of Jesus’s crucifixion was on the fifth-century wooden doors of the Basilica of Santa Sabina, which is located on the Aventine Hill in Rome.2 Since it took approximately 400 years for Jesus’s crucifixion to become an acceptable public image, scholars have traditionally believed that this means the cross did not originally function as a symbol for Christians.

                          That view is borne out by Robin M Jensen in chapter 3 of her 2017 book The Cross: History, Art, and Controversy, HUP:

                          Despite the centrality of Christ's cross in scripture and early Christian texts, it rarely occurred in visual form before the fourth century. Symbolic allusions to the cross that showed up on small personal objects or grave markers - anchors, ship's masts, or other implements - were not graphic references to Jesus's crucifixion. Some early Christian epitaphs with crosses have been dated to the third century but it was the middle of the fourth century before the cross emerged as a regular feature in Christian iconography. Two precipitating events may be most responsible for this development: the Emperor Constantine I's vision of the cross [or christogram] before his decisive battle against his enemy Maxentius, and the discovery and subsequent distribution of the relics of the actual cross in Jerusalem. [....]

                          She also notes in chapter 5 in a discussion on a possible fourth century jewelled cross being erected at the supposed site of the crucifixion that:

                          "images of jeweled crosses had emerged elsewhere in the Christian world by the mid to late fourth century. These early examples include pottery lamps, a recently discovered glass paten from southern Spain, and a late fourth-century sarcophagus currently in the Vatican Museum More monumental examples begin to appear in the fifth- and sixth century churches, especially in Rome and Ravenna. Gemmed crosses almost suddenly seem to appear everywhere, from mosaic apses to covers of Gospel books, and from sixth-century Coptic tapestries to Byzantine silver patens."
                          .
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Thank you HA and Rouge for the info. I thought I was onto a good question regarding why the Cross is not seen in the same way as icons and statues are. I don't see that there is an issue there really.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              Yes, it would be somewhat equivalent to a person wearing a miniature electric chair on a necklace.
                              Are you a fan of Lennie Bruce?

                              quote-lenny-bruce-3-91-15.jpg
                              When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
                              - Anonymous

                              When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
                              “His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                                Thank you HA and Rouge for the info. I thought I was onto a good question regarding why the Cross is not seen in the same way as icons and statues are. I don't see that there is an issue there really.
                                As Jensen notes the gradual public use of the cross as an image stems from those early fourth century legends.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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