Originally posted by tabibito
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
Representations and depictions of the deity
Collapse
X
-
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Yeah, because the moment after Christianity was no longer illegal (but not persecuted according to H_A)
There is logic somewhere in the claim, I'm sure: if only I could work out where.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostStrong associations do not necessarily imply that the cross was "openly displayed" as you have alleged.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostReally? Who says this was particular only to Christians? I think you may find that standing or kneeling with the arms outstretched and palms upward was not unknown as a position to adopt for praying to the gods, as this Egyptian figure [which predates Christianity by a millennium] shows.
It all goes to show that the cross as a symbol for Christianity stretches back to the roots of Christianity and didn't just suddenly appear as one. We've been using it since the beginning (see Paul's use of it and IIRC several scholars think that it is mentioned in Revelation as a symbol -- 7:2-3 -- indicating that the cross was used as a Christological identity marker from the beginning).
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAfter Christianity was granted toleration.
They were not "routinely" persecuted.
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThat is speculative as we have very little information as to how these various sects operated in private.
You admit that crosses started appearing in public after the Christianity was no longer illegal, but try to then imply that had nothing to do with it.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostFWIU, they were openly displayed enough pretty early on or you wouldn't have Tertullian (c. 155 - c. 220 A.D.) defending against the accusation of Christians being cross worshipers[1]. That he did strongly suggests that Christianity and the cross were already closely associated[2]
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostThis is verified by the fact that second- and third-century Christian texts mention how some Christian martyrs would make the sign of the cross by stretching out their arms such as in the Odes of Solomon and Acts of Paul and Thecla (the latter is quoted by Tertullian so it is definitely second cent.). Moreover, it appears that during this period many Christians would pray standing up with their arms stretched out in the form of a cross.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostFurther Stott mentions how Hippolytus wrote in The Apostolic Tradition (c. 215 A.D.) that the sign of the cross was used by the bishop when anointing the person's forehead during Confirmation (Tertullian also mentions something similar) and notes that given Hippolytus' reputation for being very conservative about such matters he wouldn't have described rites and customs unless they were "already long-established."
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostStill, it wasn't until the fourth century, after the conversion of Constantine, that the cross as a symbol became much more publicly visible.
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostPrior to that Christians were routinely persecuted meaning
Originally posted by rogue06 View Postthat we were extremely reticent about portraying the cross openly and symbols of our faith were kept mostly private.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostOn the topic of representations of deity, I was wondering about the cross as a symbol. I guess the reason it's easy for protestants to accuse Orthodox folk and Catholics with idolatry is because symbols such as statues, icons and relics are representations of actual people...sentient beings.
I'm just wondering how a statue or icon becomes an object of worship. What is meant by the accusation that that these things are being worshipped?
Leave a comment:
-
This is verified by the fact that second- and third-century Christian texts mention how some Christian martyrs would make the sign of the cross by stretching out their arms such as in the Odes of Solomon and Acts of Paul and Thecla (the latter is quoted by Tertullian so it is definitely second cent.). Moreover, it appears that during this period many Christians would pray standing up with their arms stretched out in the form of a cross.
Further Stott mentions how Hippolytus wrote in The Apostolic Tradition (c. 215 A.D.) that the sign of the cross was used by the bishop when anointing the person's forehead during Confirmation (Tertullian also mentions something similar) and notes that given Hippolytus' reputation for being very conservative about such matters he wouldn't have described rites and customs unless they were "already long-established."
Still, it wasn't until the fourth century, after the conversion of Constantine, that the cross as a symbol became much more publicly visible. Prior to that Christians were routinely persecuted meaning that we were extremely reticent about portraying the cross openly and symbols of our faith were kept mostly private.
But with Constantine, crucifixion as a punishment was forbidden, the persecution ended and the cross no longer had to remain hidden.
1. Even before Tertullian there was Justin Martyr who proclaimed that God had placed the shape of the cross in everyday objects. In everything from the masts of ships to the standards of Roman legions.
2. Keep in mind that even in its infancy Paul repeatedly uses the word "cross" in his letters as he responds to various conflicts stirred up by opponents (Galatians 2:18-20) even though he notes how it is a "stumbling block for the Jews and foolishness for Greeks and Romans" (I Corinthians 1:23). In fact, according to Augustine, even the Latin word for cross was harsh to the ears and supposedly it was so repulsive that Cicero refused to use it.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Machinist View PostThank you HA and Rouge for the info. I thought I was onto a good question regarding why the Cross is not seen in the same way as icons and statues are. I don't see that there is an issue there really.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Yes, it would be somewhat equivalent to a person wearing a miniature electric chair on a necklace.
quote-lenny-bruce-3-91-15.jpg
Leave a comment:
-
Thank you HA and Rouge for the info. I thought I was onto a good question regarding why the Cross is not seen in the same way as icons and statues are. I don't see that there is an issue there really.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostRead any authoritative or accredited historical work charting the rise of the cross in Christianity. It's all there.
Other than that, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, and Hippolytus among others. The Jewish Encyclopedia, John Stott's The Cross of Christ (primarily the 1st chapter) and this article from the Biblical Archaeological Society this summer.
The BAS article for which you you provided the link states the following:
Scholars believe that the first surviving public image of Jesus’s crucifixion was on the fifth-century wooden doors of the Basilica of Santa Sabina, which is located on the Aventine Hill in Rome.2 Since it took approximately 400 years for Jesus’s crucifixion to become an acceptable public image, scholars have traditionally believed that this means the cross did not originally function as a symbol for Christians.
That view is borne out by Robin M Jensen in chapter 3 of her 2017 book The Cross: History, Art, and Controversy, HUP:
Despite the centrality of Christ's cross in scripture and early Christian texts, it rarely occurred in visual form before the fourth century. Symbolic allusions to the cross that showed up on small personal objects or grave markers - anchors, ship's masts, or other implements - were not graphic references to Jesus's crucifixion. Some early Christian epitaphs with crosses have been dated to the third century but it was the middle of the fourth century before the cross emerged as a regular feature in Christian iconography. Two precipitating events may be most responsible for this development: the Emperor Constantine I's vision of the cross [or christogram] before his decisive battle against his enemy Maxentius, and the discovery and subsequent distribution of the relics of the actual cross in Jerusalem. [....]
She also notes in chapter 5 in a discussion on a possible fourth century jewelled cross being erected at the supposed site of the crucifixion that:
"images of jeweled crosses had emerged elsewhere in the Christian world by the mid to late fourth century. These early examples include pottery lamps, a recently discovered glass paten from southern Spain, and a late fourth-century sarcophagus currently in the Vatican Museum More monumental examples begin to appear in the fifth- and sixth century churches, especially in Rome and Ravenna. Gemmed crosses almost suddenly seem to appear everywhere, from mosaic apses to covers of Gospel books, and from sixth-century Coptic tapestries to Byzantine silver patens."
.
Leave a comment:
-
On the topic of representations of deity, I was wondering about the cross as a symbol. I guess the reason it's easy for protestants to accuse Orthodox folk and Catholics with idolatry is because symbols such as statues, icons and relics are representations of actual people...sentient beings.
I'm just wondering how a statue or icon becomes an object of worship. What is meant by the accusation that that these things are being worshipped?
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostStott offers an interesting idea as to why the cross was chosen when there were so many other potential symbols already in use in his The Cross of Christ but it is essentially just a good theory. Basically boils down to the rest representing various aspects of Jesus' life and ministry but they wanted to emphasize His death and resurrection and that was the best canidate
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYes, it would be somewhat equivalent to a person wearing a miniature electric chair on a necklace.
Quite amazing, then, that such a shameful symbol as "the cross" was so radically transformed.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The cross was not depicted because crucifixion was such a shameful death reserved for the lowest orders in society.
Quite amazing, then, that such a shameful symbol as "the cross" was so radically transformed.
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Markus River View Post
IIRC the Buddy Christ figure was conceived by a committee formed by Cardinal Ignatius Glick, with a mandate to brighten up the rather dour persona of the catholic church. The biggest joke was having the Cardinal played by the late George Carlin, who was known as an outspoken atheist.
I think that Carlin was more of the Bertrand Russell type, but with a scathing wit.
- 1 like
Leave a comment:
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, Yesterday, 08:31 AM
|
15 responses
72 views
0 likes
|
Last Post Today, 09:46 AM | ||
Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
|
25 responses
148 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cerebrum123
Yesterday, 08:31 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
102 responses
548 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
Today, 04:07 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
|
39 responses
251 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
04-12-2024, 02:58 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
154 responses
1,017 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
04-12-2024, 12:39 PM
|
Leave a comment: