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Representations and depictions of the deity

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    OK - you and Hypatia Alexandria have between you ....
    Eww. Cooties! Get em' off me! Get 'em off! Now I need some of seer's homebrewed anti-cootie serum. I understand it's 120 proof.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #32
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      OK - you and Hypatia Alexandria have between you made a good enough case to hold that the shroud is not authentic. With the usual rider that unexpected and particularly impressive evidence to the contrary might make reopening the books worthwhile.
      The really interesting question remains as to how it was actually created.

      Should you ever find yourself in Vienna you should visit the Schatzkammer. There you will find some fascinating artefacts that represent both credulity and superb craftsmanship. These include Jesus' swaddling bands, yet another of Veronica's veils, another thorn from the crown of thorns, the lance of Longinus, and even the Holy Grail.

      If you have any interest in embroidery there are also stunning examples of needlework dating back several centuries.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #33
        Years ago, I went to a Christian camp where there was this prayer closet, and in this space, there was a life size statue of Jesus upon the Cross. This was with a non-denominational, charismatic type church. The closet was a small room where you could have some quiet time in prayer.


        Also, if anyone could tell me...but I read somewhere that the ancient Jews were the first to have this notion of an image-less deity (no graven image), the name also couldn't be spoken or written. I've read that no other religion has ever had such a concept.



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        • #34
          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          Years ago, I went to a Christian camp where there was this prayer closet, and in this space, there was a life size statue of Jesus upon the Cross.
          Good grief! A [lapsed] Catholic friend of mine recalls when he was at kindergarten in England the building, which was an old Victorian school next to the church, had a particularly gloomy corridor and in an alcove of this corridor was a mid-shot life size statue of the Christ [complete with a flashing sacred heart]. This image rested on a pedestal making it quite tall!

          He remembers his terror at this object.

          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          This was with a non-denominational, charismatic type church. The closet was a small room where you could have some quiet time in prayer.
          Was such an icon actually conducive to quiet contemplation?


          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
          Also, if anyone could tell me...but I read somewhere that the ancient Jews were the first to have this notion of an image-less deity (no graven image), the name also couldn't be spoken or written. I've read that no other religion has ever had such a concept.
          The iconoclasm of Judaism came later. The early Hebrews were far from being so.

          And of course the "Priestly" views were not always followed by the ordinary man or woman, as the "folk religion" of archaeological evidence has attested with regard to Asherah, the goddess that was venerated as the traditional consort of the god Yahweh, the god of the Bible..
          Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 12-01-2021, 08:02 AM.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            Was such an icon actually conducive to quiet contemplation?


            It was for some I suppose. No one complained about it and the room seemed to always be occupied.


            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post

              It was for some I suppose. No one complained about it and the room seemed to always be occupied.

              Fair enough. It seems very odd to me to use such a representation for contemplation.

              It reminds me of the joke about the old Jewish gentleman in the Catholic hospital. Naturally his room contained a crucifix on the wall which he asked the nurse to remove, noting that "one suffering Jew is enough ".
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Fair enough. It seems very odd to me to use such a representation for contemplation.

                It reminds me of the joke about the old Jewish gentleman in the Catholic hospital. Naturally his room contained a crucifix on the wall which he asked the nurse to remove, noting that "one suffering Jew is enough ".
                HaHa!


                I'm not too sure as to the attitudes toward icons and artefacts such as this within Christendom though. I often hear protestants charge Catholics with Idolatry. In Hebrew history, yes, there was a direct command to not make any graven image, but there isn't anything in the NT about this issue as far as I know.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



                  And of course the "Priestly" views were not always followed by the ordinary man or woman, as the "folk religion" of archaeological evidence has attested with regard to Asherah, the goddess that was venerated as the traditional consort of the god Yahweh, the god of the Bible..
                  The Bible makes it clear that such lapses were very common.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                    HaHa!


                    I'm not too sure as to the attitudes toward icons and artefacts such as this within Christendom though. I often hear protestants charge Catholics with Idolatry. In Hebrew history, yes, there was a direct command to not make any graven image, but there isn't anything in the NT about this issue as far as I know.
                    As we all know Christians have often killed one another over icons.

                    That is yet another tension in the religion where it tries [unsuccessfully] to reconcile the unseen and ineffable deity of Judaism with Hellenistic anthropomorphic deities. One religion was iconoclastic the others not.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      The Bible makes it clear that such lapses were very common.
                      What makes you think these were lapses?
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        As we all know Christians have often killed one another over icons.

                        That is yet another tension in the religion where it tries [unsuccessfully] to reconcile the unseen and ineffable deity of Judaism with Hellenistic anthropomorphic deities. One religion was iconoclastic the others not.
                        When you become a Christian, then you may comment on Christianity. Your rules.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          When you become a Christian, then you may comment on Christianity. Your rules.
                          I think she's a rules for thee but not for me type.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            It all depends on Mary's lineage, and that is vague.

                            Allegedly, people from the Mediterranean region haven't change much in 2K years. With that as a reference, I'd select this northern Egyptian figure as a likely depiction.
                            Around 30, ordinary appearance.

                            egypt.jpg

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                              Also, if anyone could tell me...but I read somewhere that the ancient Jews were the first to have this notion of an image-less deity (no graven image), the name also couldn't be spoken or written. I've read that no other religion has ever had such a concept.
                              They are interesting prohibitions.

                              The prohibition against graven images applies to "anything in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below," and yet the same book -- Exodus -- records the specifications for the Ark of the Covenant, including graven images of cherubim for the cover.

                              The prohibition against speaking YHWH is not found in Scripture. (I am skeptical there was a prohibition against writing it. If there were, it would not occur in Scripture, but it does.) I've always been a bit bemused by the fact that I AM was very explicit in revealing His name to Moses, and told Him,

                              “This is my name forever,
                              the name you shall call me
                              from generation to generation."

                              And yet at some point they became reverently afraid to actually "call" Him by that name. When they read the Scriptures and came to YHWH, rather than speak it, they spoke "Adonai."
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Federalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Let's go, Brandon

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                                They are interesting prohibitions.

                                The prohibition against graven images applies to "anything in heaven above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below," and yet the same book -- Exodus -- records the specifications for the Ark of the Covenant, including graven images of cherubim for the cover.
                                And the full context is that such things are not to be made as objects of worship. Scripture doesn't prohibit artwork as such.

                                The prohibition against speaking YHWH is not found in Scripture. (I am skeptical there was a prohibition against writing it. If there were, it would not occur in Scripture, but it does.) I've always been a bit bemused by the fact that I AM was very explicit in revealing His name to Moses, and told Him,

                                And yet at some point they became reverently afraid to actually "call" Him by that name. When they read the Scriptures and came to YHWH, rather than speak it, they spoke "Adonai."
                                The prohibition is against speaking the name in vain - not against speaking the name. I assume primarily as a matter of not using God's name in (by either definition) oaths. Noteworthy is the existence of early manuscripts in which the name of God is (by contrast with the rest of the manuscript) not written in Hebrew, but in Paleo-Hebrew.
                                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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