Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

[Sparko]

Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

By offering Baptism to the people, both Jesus and the Baptist were giving cleansing and redemption for nothing, thus cutting off the vast flow of money in the the Temple and also to the greedy citizens around Jerusalem who even overcharged Temple visitors for shelter in outhouses, sheds and so forth.

By redacting so many rules and laws Jesus was giving the people an opportunity to Progress out of the old corrupted and hypocritical regime.

By promoting the sharing of wealth Jesus did not accept the situation of a few very wealthy people in a land with so many poor.

Progressive Socialist?

But members may have verses which show that Jesus was neither one nor t'other of these?

Mark {10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,

Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Obvious is obvious.

[NorrinRadd]

Moving forward.
Obviously this thread is about what the Baptist and Jesus said and did as shown in gospel verses, but as has already been shown, Jesus often made reference to the old writings. His parable about a manager who stuffed funds in to the ground (like modern day tax evaders?) is obviously aimed at hidden wealth in a world of poverty. See here for an example:-
Job 27:17 ...........................what he lays up, the righteous will wear, and his silver will be divided by the innocent.

and just for fun, just some of the many many references about poverty and wealth.........

Psalm 72:13
He will take pity on the poor and needy and save the lives of the oppressed.

This whole context is about exalting the earthly-but-godly king in a theocracy.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is passed to the righteous.

This one argues against your point, as it affirms private property and inheritance, and advocates transfer of wealth based on moral virtue rather than "need."

Proverbs 14:21
.............................. blessed is he who shows kindness to the poor.

Proverbs 14:31
Whoever oppresses the poor taunts their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors Him.

You will never find a Christian who denies that Jesus -- and Paul, for that matter -- taught generosity, so I don't see your point in piling up verses that support that idea.

You have argued that Jesus never repudiated the OT laws requiring kindness to the poor. I infer this is your way of countering the objection that Jesus taught generosity, but not socialism (which has da gubmint enforce wealth transfer). This is effectively an argument from silence, something lefties usually denounce when conservatives note that Jesus never overturned the OT laws about homosexuality.

You have also indicated you prefer to isolate on the teachings and practices of Jesus and the Baptizer. Obviously this is a problem for those who consider all of Scripture to be equally "the inspired and authoritative word of God." But even apart from that, it is not entirely tenable, in that in Luke's version of the Last Supper account, Jesus notes that He is inaugurating the New Covenant. With a change of covenant, there is always the likelihood that there will be a change in the *terms* of the covenant, and in this case we have to go beyond the Gospels to find out about that.

[eider]

Moving forward.
Obviously this thread is about what the Baptist and Jesus said and did as shown in gospel verses, but as has already been shown, Jesus often made reference to the old writings. His parable about a manager who stuffed funds in to the ground (like modern day tax evaders?) is obviously aimed at hidden wealth in a world of poverty. See here for an example:-
Job 27:17 ...........................what he lays up, the righteous will wear, and his silver will be divided by the innocent.

and just for fun, just some of the many many references about poverty and wealth.........

Psalm 72:13
He will take pity on the poor and needy and save the lives of the oppressed.

Proverbs 13:22
A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, but the sinner's wealth is passed to the righteous.

Proverbs 14:21
.............................. blessed is he who shows kindness to the poor.

Proverbs 14:31
Whoever oppresses the poor taunts their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors Him.

[eider]

It's amusing to see the level of twists and distortions that "bible-believing Christians" go to in order to avoid the obvious and plain teaching of the bible on this topic.

It is quite shocking, Starlight.
So far nobody has come forward with a single verse that suggests that the Baptist or Jesus were anything but dedicated to progress away from the corruption and greed of the Priesthood and towards provision for all people regardless of ability or disability. You can imagine what they would both be saying today.

[eider]

By saying "unreasonably poor," you have introduced a concept that isn't found in the Bible. How do we define "unreasonably poor?" Is this an area measure or a global measure? Many poor in the US would be considered rich in other countries of the world. Part of the reason we have a whole bunch of people trying to come into the US right now. They think, rightly, that they will be materially richer than where they are now.

So what is "unreasonably poor" and how would we know if it is eliminated?

I can see from your post that you might have difficulty in deciding what an unreasonable level of poverty might be, TM. If that really is a difficulty for you I don't think I can help you much.
But Jesus and the Baptist certainly knew about unreasonable poverty and unreasonable wealth.
There are so many verses which point towards how they felt, TM:-
Mark , {4:19} And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches............................ choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
Mark , {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Mark, {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! Mark, {10:25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God

Abundance and poverty, TM.
Mark {12:42} And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. {12:43} And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: {12:44} For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.

[Starlight]

No. This gets beaten into a fine pink mist every year as Christmas approaches.

It's amusing to see the level of twists and distortions that "bible-believing Christians" go to in order to avoid the obvious and plain teaching of the bible on this topic.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Hello TM. But no...... The Levite clan was in fact the upper class and leadership. The ruling class under the Tetrarchs and Roman Prefect.
And of course there would always be poor, because there would always be the Abled, and the Disabled, and Jesus believed in support for the disabled, as already shown.

Surely, there is no excuse for there being unreasonably poor people in society, TM.??

By saying "unreasonably poor," you have introduced a concept that isn't found in the Bible. How do we define "unreasonably poor?" Is this an area measure or a global measure? Many poor in the US would be considered rich in other countries of the world. Part of the reason we have a whole bunch of people trying to come into the US right now. They think, rightly, that they will be materially richer than where they are now.

So what is "unreasonably poor" and how would we know if it is eliminated?

[eider]

So we have seen some of the verses which could answer the Question 'Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?'
There are more, but here is a collection of those shown so far, including just some of the poor laws which Jesus supported in his words and actions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark {10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,

Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

Matthew {25:25} And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth:
(......those digital detectives that find out about the fat wealthy people who stuff their money where it cannot be found. Indeed. We know what Jesus would do about them when so many are in so much need.)

Luke:- . {10:31} And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. {10:32} And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him,] and passed by on the other side. {10:33} But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him, ]{10:34} And went to [him,] and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
(See how Jesus scorned the rich and leaders in the above story!)

Mark :{2:23} And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
(Here is a great example of how Jesus supported the poor laws)

And this verse from Deuteronomy which Jesus actually referred to in Matthew 26:11:-
Deuteronomy {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
(Powerful words!)

---------------------------------

Some of the Poor Laws:-
Leviticus {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Leviticus {19:9} And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

Leviticus {19:10} And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release.

Deut {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.

[eider]

For poverty, Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, "The poor you will always have with you,..." which is a quote of Deuteronomy 15:11. I don't think Jesus is expecting us to eliminate poverty.

You should have referred to Deuteronomy TM! Look at what Jesus must have been thinking of...... here it is, the whole verse:-
Deuteronomy {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

.............. you see? A Poor Law, which Jesus quoted.

[eider]

I would rephrase the end of your sentence to be "the alleviation of poverty and the end of greedy corrupt religious leadership."

For poverty, Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, "The poor you will always have with you,..." which is a quote of Deuteronomy 15:11. I don't think Jesus is expecting us to eliminate poverty.

As for leadership, I don't know of any passage where he calls for a change in secular leadership. He's calling for a change in religious leadership.

Hello TM. But no...... The Levite clan was in fact the upper class and leadership. The ruling class under the Tetrarchs and Roman Prefect.
And of course there would always be poor, because there would always be the Abled, and the Disabled, and Jesus believed in support for the disabled, as already shown.

Surely, there is no excuse for there being unreasonably poor people in society, TM.??

[Thoughtful Monk]

Indeed....... Yes.
The words and actions of Baptist and Jesus both were devoted to the elimination of extreme poverty, and the end of greedy corrupted leadership.

I would rephrase the end of your sentence to be "the alleviation of poverty and the end of greedy corrupt religious leadership."

For poverty, Jesus said in Matthew 26:11, "The poor you will always have with you,..." which is a quote of Deuteronomy 15:11. I don't think Jesus is expecting us to eliminate poverty.

As for leadership, I don't know of any passage where he calls for a change in secular leadership. He's calling for a change in religious leadership.

[eider]

One post mentioned the book of Deuteronomy. Obviously this cannot show what Jesus said or did but verses from the gospels can show how Jesus supported verses of both Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Here is just such a one:-
Mark :{2:23} And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

Here is a great example of how Jesus supported the poor laws, quite comnfortable thatr his disciples were foraging in fields 'not theirs' as they travelled. Farmers were no allowed to harvest the corners of their fields by law, nor to collect fallen grain. And so anybody could forage for food in fields. Imagine how much it would help a society if those laws still existed today? There are many poor laws in the Old Testament, but here are some for your interest:-

Leviticus {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Leviticus {19:9} And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

Leviticus {19:10} And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release.

Deut {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.

[eider]

Go back to post #3. I provided two of Christ's parables that are relevant and reveal anything but a socialist bend.

Are you referring to the verses that I featured in post 8?
It's so easy to show verses ...... so please, just show them again if I missed any.

[eider]

Exactly what did the Baptist teach on this

You can read about what the Baptist said and did in the gospels. But I will be focussing upon what verses there are on this thread.

[rogue06]

The Baptist and Jesus? Please include some verses to support your point. If you have any.
Thank you.

Go back to post #3. I provided two of Christ's parables that are relevant and reveal anything but a socialist bend.