Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Even the "all things in common" portion of Acts 4 doesn't imply that people were forced into giving, or that there was any "central control" that required them to share.

    I'm kinda surprised THAT hasn't come up in this "Christians need to be socialists" hogwash.
    This thread is not about what Christians need to be.
    This thread is about what the Baptist's and Jesus's campaigns, missions.... were all about.
    A few religions outside of Christianity focus upon Jesus as well as some historians........ None of these groups have the same ideas about Jesus as Christianity does.

    I begin to wonder if this forum is about religions in general, or just about your kind of Christianity. Do you welcome other religions, agnostics, atheists, humanists on to the apologist section here?

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    *cough* Matthew 18:11 *sputter* John 3:3-6, John 3:16-18...
    Matthew {18:11} For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    Yes, he had come....... you're interpretation of that is just totally different to mine. I am writing about what I believe Jesus came to do on this thread.
    The Temple corruption, and a Priesthood supposed to be devoted to the people......... these were lost.

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    That's what I thought. You couldn't remember his name but you think you know that he was a socialist. But now you want to play it off as a joke.
    No.... no joke. John's name would have been very close to Yohan BenZacharias. The name given to him by the people was 'Immerser' or 'Baptist'. Where's the joke?

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    and yet none of those verses showed that John was a socialist.

    Do you understand what socialism even is? It's not sharing what you have voluntarily, it is a government that controls the means of production and "shares" what others have involuntarily.
    It's not about what the term 'Socialist' means today........ it's all about what Jesus wanted back then..... and what the Laws of Moses were about as well.

    It you try to shackle the word 'Socialist' to people like Stalin then you're going to come unstuck. That's just an example. Most Communist Leaders are not true Socialists, they don't believe in ending unreasonable wealth and unreasonable poverty. Jesus just did.

    If you read the Baptist's (John's) sayings again you might see his feelings about property, and especially the corruption of an hypocritical Priesthood.

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    "ben" = "son of" - or "son," anyway - Levite or no.
    Wrong.
    The Levites mostly spoke in (what we know as) Western Aramaic ....... son of = Ben as in BenHur
    The Northern Jews mostly spoke in (what we know as) Eastern Aramaic ....... son of = Bar as in Barabbas

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    So, you're suggesting that something isn't "real" (or "doesn't count") if it's only mentioned in ONE of the Gospels?
    Do you want to talk about Jesus's comments about a disgusting, corrupted, greedy upper class Priesthood and his points about wealth and poverty, or not?

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    "ben" = "son of" - or "son," anyway - Levite or no.


    Cow Poke *cough* Matthew 18:11 ςωζω (save)
    *sputter* John 3:3-6, not present
    John 3:16-18... [17] σωζω (save)

    John 4:22 σωτηρια (salvation)
    John 4:42 σωτηρ (saviour)

    Paul used the term (σωτηρια) at least 14 times - at least once in citation of the Old Testament - so even those who subscribe to the story that Luke was written at a later time don't have a lot of support for whatever their claim is supposed to demonstrate.
    You're a smart fella, Tab --- you know that "the word" doesn't have to be there for the concept to be clearly understood.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    "ben" = "son of" - or "son," anyway - Levite or no.


    Cow Poke *cough* Matthew 18:11 ςωζω (save)
    *sputter* John 3:3-6, not present
    John 3:16-18... [17] σωζω (save)

    John 4:22 σωτηρια (salvation)
    John 4:42 σωτηρ (saviour)

    Paul used the term (σωτηρια) at least 14 times - at least once in citation of the Old Testament - so even those who subscribe to the story that Luke was written at a later time don't have a lot of support for whatever their claim is supposed to demonstrate.

    Last edited by tabibito; 10-25-2021, 06:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    and yet none of those verses showed that John was a socialist.

    Do you understand what socialism even is? It's not sharing what you have voluntarily, it is a government that controls the means of production and "shares" what others have involuntarily.
    Even the "all things in common" portion of Acts 4 doesn't imply that people were forced into giving, or that there was any "central control" that required them to share.

    I'm kinda surprised THAT hasn't come up in this "Christians need to be socialists" hogwash.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post

    I was asked to write about The Baptist! (Rogue and Sparko)
    I wrote about the Baptist.
    and yet none of those verses showed that John was a socialist.

    Do you understand what socialism even is? It's not sharing what you have voluntarily, it is a government that controls the means of production and "shares" what others have involuntarily.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    OK. I will carry on with this as far as the verses will go.


    The ideas were theirs, as shown by actions and words.


    The Baptist, or The Immerser........ His name? I've never seen it writ large..... I think it is Yohan BenZacharius or something similar. 'Ben' if his Dad was a Levite, which he was.
    That's what I thought. You couldn't remember his name but you think you know that he was a socialist. But now you want to play it off as a joke.


    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    Salvation ....... (excepting in Luke)
    *cough* Matthew 18:11 *sputter* John 3:3-6, John 3:16-18...

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by eider View Post
    Salvation ....... (excepting in Luke)
    So, you're suggesting that something isn't "real" (or "doesn't count") if it's only mentioned in ONE of the Gospels?

    Leave a comment:


  • eider
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    OK, let's not play games -- WHAT word does not exist?
    Salvation ....... (excepting in Luke)

    Because the word "Trinity" doesn't exist in the gospels - or anywhere else in the Bible - but I'm certainly a Trinitarian!
    That's for you to decide.

    I've written many words from the gospels on this thread.
    I think they matter........... Do you want to write against any?

    Mark {10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor,

    Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

    Matthew {23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

    Matthew {25:25} And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth:
    (......those digital detectives that find out about the fat wealthy people who stuff their money where it cannot be found. Indeed. We know what Jesus would do about them when so many are in so much need.)

    Luke:- . {10:31} And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. {10:32} And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him,] and passed by on the other side. {10:33} But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him, ]{10:34} And went to [him,] and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
    (See how Jesus scorned the rich and leaders in the above story!)

    Mark :{2:23} And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
    (Here is a great example of how Jesus supported the poor laws)

    And this verse from Deuteronomy which Jesus actually referred to:-
    Deuteronomy {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
    (Powerful words!)

    Mark , {4:19} And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches............................ choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

    Mark , {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

    Mark, {10:24} And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! Mark, {10:25} It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God


    Mark {12:42} And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. {12:43} And he called [unto him] his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: {12:44} For all [they] did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, [even] all her living.


    ---------------------------------

    Some of the Poor Laws:-
    Leviticus {15:11} For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

    Leviticus {19:9} And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.

    Leviticus {19:10} And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather [every] grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I [am] the LORD your God.

    Deuteronomy {15:1} At the end of [every] seven years thou shalt make a release. {15:2} And this [is] the manner of the release: Every creditor that lendeth [ought] unto his neighbour shall release [it;] he shall not exact [it] of his neighbour, or of his brother; because it is called the LORD’S release.

    Deut {15:7} If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother: {15:8} But thou shalt open thine hand wide unto him, and shalt surely lend him sufficient for his need, [in that] which he wanteth.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
    I have never interpreted the story of Jesus as Him being politically or socially progressive. There were definitely implications (possibly far reaching) into the realms of politics and society, but I don't see that that was His focus or intent.
    That's fair! He most certainly placed a greater emphasis on the eternal over the temporal.

    Render unto Caesar what is Caesars and unto God what is God's. It's quite clear to me that He was promoting a Kingdom not of this world.
    EGGzackly.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
39 responses
207 views
0 likes
Last Post whag
by whag
 
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
45 responses
305 views
1 like
Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
406 responses
2,518 views
2 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Working...
X