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Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Given that it is generally accepted that Luke and Matthew used a version of Mark and that both writers probably had as much local knowledge as the author or Mark, why would he?
    Evidence supporting this majority opinion isn't particularly compelling. Internal evidence available from Luke shows that he was a companion traveller with Paul.

    As Helms notes in subsequent comments:
    Helms ... Helms. Oh yes, the professor of English Literature. Surely you could come up with an author who is actually accredited in the field of Biblical literature - preferably one with a major in Koine Greek. Not that I consider credentials to be particularly significant, but you (judging by your comments elsewhere) certainly do.

    However, the important location is the Mount of Olives; typology, not history, is at work: here. The typological fiction continues on the basis of Zech. 9:9 LXX: Rejoice greatly, 0 daughter of Sion; proclaim it aloud, 0 daughter of Jerusalem; behold, the king is coming to thee, just. and a Saviour [sōzōn] "saving,; he is meek and riding on an ass, and a young foal [pōlon neon a "new (unridden) foal"]. [...] Matthew wants so much for Jesus to fulfll Zech. 9:9 (as the evangelist understands the verse) that he invents a second donkey: "You will at once find a donkey tethered with her foal beside her, untie them, and bring them to me. . . . the disciples went and did as Jesus had directed, and brought the donkey and her foal; they laid their cloaks on them and Jesus mounted . (Matt. 21:2, 6- 7)
    So the claim is that Matthew misread the text of Zechariah and invented a story to make the event fit with the (misunderstood) prophecy. But that misreading would involve the same kind of error that is needed to have Jesus being in two different places when he instructed his disciples to collect the colt. If such a misreading were in play, Matthew's record, not Luke's, would conform with that of Mark.



    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      I honestly can't figure him out. I think he starts out sincere but then seamlessly transitions to trolling after his arguments get blown out of the water (which happens in just about every thread he posts in).
      Maybe he's Hypoxia_Atrocity's sock puppet!!!!
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        No. This gets beaten into a fine pink mist every year as Christmas approaches.


        Jesus definitely instructed His followers to take care of the poor, but charity is not communism. Early Christians were a group of people helping each other out, a family not a government. And nobody was forced to give anything. They shared it.

        It was how they took care of themselves and each other -- a very small group that in effect was an extended family. Nowhere is it even suggested that this was supposed to be a blueprint for how a nation or government should do things. In fact, in I Timothy 5:8, where we read

        But if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.


        makes it clear that it is an individual responsibility and not something to be sloughed off onto others to do it for you. The simple fact of the matter is that Jesus instructed His followers to take care of the poor. He never said anything about getting the government to force others to do so -- which is what socialism does.

        Moreover, in II Thessalonians 3:10 Paul tells us that any assistance that we give out needs to be paired with responsibility

        For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.


        Those who slack off, refuse to work, and expect a handout should get nothing. They should be refused aid. That contradicts the whole "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" mantra of the left.

        Now I know you prefer to ignore Paul, so let's look at exactly what Jesus taught.

        In His parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) Jesus has the main character giving according to their ability not according to their need. And note how he took back what he gave the servant who buried the money and did nothing with it rather than used it to increase the owners wealth and gave it to the servant who had increased his wealth ten-fold.

        Often the parable concerning the Good Samaritan is put forth as evidence that Jesus supported Socialism. But the Good Samaritan took it upon himself to help out. What he didn't do is walk off and contact any government officials and told them to do it instead. And he didn't expect the innkeeper to assume the cost of caring for the injured man but instead paid it out of his (the Samaritan's) own pocket.

        Again, Jesus taught that it is a personal responsibility to care for those in need. Please note that Jesus never told anyone that instead of helping others in need themselves they should get the Pharisees, scribes or even Roman officials to do it for you. It is your responsibility.

        And let's be blunt, Socialism is not about sharing but rather seizing someone's property by force or threat of force (if you don't voluntarily hand it over) and giving it away including to those who do nothing but hold out their hand and then demand more. And keep in mind that the Bible does not condone in any way shape or form someone demanding money from others. Instead it explicitly teaches that we should not covet what others have (Exodus 20:17; cf. Deuteronomy 5:21)

        You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's


        Socialism teaches that we should look at what other people have, crave it and then decide on what should be taken away from them so that we can have it.

        Finally, "common ownership" didn't mean everything was shared. As Acts 12:12; 16:40; Romans 16:3-5; Colossians 4:15 makes clear some Christians (including John Mark -- the first reference) still owned property and their own homes, allowing them to be used upon occasion as meeting places for the church.
        Excellent comprehensive post.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

          The parable of the talents is a metaphor and not intended as literal financial advice any more than the parable of the sower and seeds is a treatise on gardening.
          Funny!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            And that those who have enriched themselves should be made even richer at the expense of others, right?
            You cannot have paid much attention to what Jesus said, MM.
            He showed beyond any doubt that storing up, hiding away, secreting ..wealth, is wrong.
            Jesus clearly didn't like greed, unreasonable wealth, unreasonable poverty.

            Or do you disagree with what he said...and did?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

              A LOT of what is important to Christianity happened in Jerusalem, both OT and NT.

              "Crucified, buried and risen again" did not happen in Galilee.
              This thread is debating what Jesus said and did.
              If one gospel needed to mention many visits to Jerusalem then it's up to you which you take notice of.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                For the record, I was being tongue in cheek. The parable of the talents is a metaphor and not intended as literal financial advice any more than the parable of the sower and seeds is a treatise on gardening.

                But the fact that you dismissed it as rubbish when I essentially employed the same style of argument and scriptural interpretation as you is certainly interesting.
                This, above ^^ tells me that you don't take all of what Jesus said and did very seriously, MM.
                This was metaphor, that was most serious, the other we can overlook.... etc. I think you have done that with the OT laws as well.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Again all this purely your opinion you cannot know of any of that. It is generally accepted that the text of Mark was composed in Rome and for a gentile congregation.
                  Generally accepted....? Who has 'generally accepted' all this?
                  I see so many scholars disagreeing with each other.
                  We should all do our own investigation, I think.
                  Even the enemies of Jesus wrote about him and his disciples, HA.
                  Did the gospels have to be written in Capernaum or Nazareth, HA?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    There is no reason why this character [if one actually existed] for not being a member of the Herodian army. As I noted, it was modelled on Roman lines.
                    Herodian Army? What waffle is that? Do you mean Herod Antipas's forces?
                    HA, how can the character of Jesus have been modelled upon an early first century Galilean soldier?
                    ....... can't wait to read about that.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                      Have you heard of quote-mining? You have take that to a whole new level with this idea of Jesus being a "progressive" and a "socialist"

                      If you really aren't trolling then you are a complete moron when it comes to the bible, so I will leave you to your delusions. I have found it is not worth my time to argue with someone who is so wrong as you are. It's a waste of time.
                      Fair enough....
                      But...............
                      The bible? The bible, Sparko?
                      The gospels are the story of what Jesus said and did.
                      But it seems that much of what Jesus said is 'quote mining'...yes?
                      What I have not seen from you or any others are any quotes from Jesus that support unreasonable wealth and unreasonable poverty.
                      And now it doesn't seem that I will be reading any.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                        ...........................trolling after his arguments get blown out of the water ........................
                        You can help me MM.
                        Teach me.

                        Show me what Jesus did or said that supports unreasonable wealth, hoarding wealth, discarding 9any) disability ....?
                        Teach a moron like me, that Jesus did not want to progress out of that wicked system, that corrupt unfair divide.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Given that it is generally accepted that Luke and Matthew used a version of Mark and that both writers probably had as much local knowledge as the author of Mark, why would he?

                          As Helms notes in subsequent comments:

                          However, the important location is the Mount of Olives; typology, not history, is at work: here. The typological fiction continues on the basis of Zech. 9:9 LXX: Rejoice greatly, 0 daughter of Sion; proclaim it aloud, 0 daughter of Jerusalem; behold, the king is coming to thee, just. and a Saviour [sōzōn] "saving,; he is meek and riding on an ass, and a young foal [pōlon neon a "new (unridden) foal"]. [...] Matthew wants so much for Jesus to fulfll Zech. 9:9 (as the evangelist understands the verse) that he invents a second donkey: "You will at once find a donkey tethered with her foal beside her, untie them, and bring them to me. . . . the disciples went and did as Jesus had directed, and brought the donkey and her foal; they laid their cloaks on them and Jesus mounted . (Matt. 21:2, 6- 7)
                          Why do you read this stuff?
                          Randell Helms, who chucked out the baby with the bathwater.
                          If Randell concentrated on discovering truth rather than grasping only at metaphor he might actually make a promising detective.

                          Helms has written a series of books using Higher Criticism to analyze the Bible. In Gospel Fictions, Helms argues that the Gospel writers used the Old Testament as a source of material to build up fictional details about events surrounding Jesus.[9] He also wrote Who wrote the Gospels? (1997)[10] and The Bible against itself (2006) on similar themes.[11]

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Maybe he's Hypoxia_Atrocity's sock puppet!!!!
                            Ouch!!!!!
                            You can call me anything you like...... I can take it.

                            But an extreme atheist's sock-puppet? You're just being wicked now.

                            I'm a hot-cold shower for many Christians. Some times my posts can warm them up, others will freeze them solid. It is my destiny.

                            Comment


                            • @Sparko.
                              Fair enough.
                              You've let me run this thread and it's run for 16 pages now.
                              I always learn from debate and so it has been a benefit for me, and I thank you for letting it just......... run.
                              OK........ let's leave it... and Thank you.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                                What proof is there that the presence of a second donkey is an invention?
                                Mark 11.1-2
                                When they were approaching Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, near the Mount of Olives, he sent two of his disciples 2 and said to them, “Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately as you enter it, you will find tied there a colt that has never been ridden; untie it and bring it.

                                Matthew 21.1-2
                                When they had come near Jerusalem and had reached Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village ahead of you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied, and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to me.

                                Matthew 21.6-7
                                The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them; 7 they brought the donkey and the colt, and put their cloaks on them, and he sat on them.

                                My emphasis.

                                How did he sit on both animals at the same time?
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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