Originally posted by eider
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?
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Originally posted by eider View PostReally? Brothers (and Sisters) often share inheritances ....
The Baptist:
Luke {3:11} He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
Moses:-
Deuteronomy {15:11} .................. Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.
Jesus:
Mark , {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
You think this is trolling?
And enemy of Jesus?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by eider View Post
I was writing to Cow Poke who wrote:-
They wanted Jesus to enforce social welfare.
(As I recall, Jesus wasn't so keen on that notion)
Which part of that didn't you understand?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo "they wanted Jesus to enforce social welfare." And how did he respond? Did He "enforce social welfare"? If not, doesn't that sort of deflate your contention that His goal was to "enforce social welfare"?
He clearly wanted no part of that little squabble.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by eider View Post
Jesus was not a thief, Sparko. And the promotion of the OT poor laws, and his repeated sayings which covered greed, hoarding wealth and excess were not inciting theft.
But he did cause mayhem in Anna's bazaar, picket the Temple Courts and make speech to the people. And he returned the next day to do some of thos things.
Promotion of fair Taxation is not theft surely?
EDIT: Please do come back about this........ can we debate the point you have put forward?
We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
He didn't promote taxation either. He merely said that Peter should pay the tax to Caesar because it was Caesar's money. He wasn't getting involved. He was not there to foment rebellion against the secular government. And the OT laws were about, again, sharing. Sharing is not socialism. Socialism is when the government decides that it needs to step in and force "sharing" by taking away (taxing) the rich and giving to the poor in order to make everyone equally poor, while keeping a lion's share for those who do the governing. Nobody here is against caring and sharing voluntarily. That is not "socialism" that is "charity"
We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
He didn't promote taxation either. He merely said that Peter should pay the tax to Caesar because it was Caesar's money. He wasn't getting involved. He was not there to foment rebellion against the secular government. And the OT laws were about, again, sharing. Sharing is not socialism. Socialism is when the government decides that it needs to step in and force "sharing" by taking away (taxing) the rich and giving to the poor in order to make everyone equally poor, while keeping a lion's share for those who do the governing. Nobody here is against caring and sharing voluntarily. That is not "socialism" that is "charity"
We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.
The first was the Temple Tax (Matt 17:24-27), not the Roman tax, and was required of all military age men (Exodus 30, 2 Kings 12, Nehemiah 10) and was being demanded by the religious leaders. Jesus had Peter pay it for Himself and Peter (making one wonder about the other Disciples - why just these two? Some have suggested that the other disciples were not yet of military age )
And Jesus was not endorsing it - he had Peter pay the tax to avoid a battle with the Jewish leaders.
The other was the Roman Tax about which Jesus said “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”
But Jesus was not promoting taxation.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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There is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThere is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
I think "appropriate" would be a stretch. Tolerable or acceptable, I think, would be a better choice of words.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThere is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I have no problem with "acceptable." But perhaps some might argue that it was only because taxes weren't being used for social welfare programmes ...
But, yeah, I don't see it as any kind of endorsement at all of taxation.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Sadly for your narrative, I don't subscribe to any of that.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThe same is true of a number of people who object to nonsense being palmed off as scholarly evaluation.
If you do not "subscribe to any of that" what issue do you have with recognising that the author of Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world and certainly never knew the man we call Jesus of Nazareth?
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
If you do not "subscribe to any of that" what issue do you have with recognising that the author of Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world and certainly never knew the man we call Jesus of Nazareth?
CLAIM: Mark was never personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth. accepted - on the basis of known facts, with no contradictory evidence available.
CLAIM: Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world. accepted - highly probable.
CLAIM: Mark was wrong about particulars of locations. rejected - speculative assessment for which opposing speculation is equally viable. And some of those speculations have in fact been demonstrated false. (this is of course limited to points that have been entered into discussion and which I have considered. It is of course, not a blanket assessment of all the points that might be raised.)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
I have an issue with speculation being presented as fact.
CLAIM: Mark was never personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth. accepted - on the basis of known facts, with no contradictory evidence available.
CLAIM: Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world. accepted - highly probable.
CLAIM: Mark was wrong about particulars of locations. rejected - speculative assessment for which opposing speculation is equally viable. And some of those speculations have in fact been demonstrated false. (this is of course limited to points that have been entered into discussion and which I have considered. It is of course, not a blanket assessment of all the points that might be raised.)
A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they *seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked. (Mark 14:51)When I Survey....
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