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Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    Really? Brothers (and Sisters) often share inheritances ....
    As determined by their parents - Jesus wanted no part of it.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      Bethany Bethphage: It would be normal to say that a person went through Albury Wodonga en route to Wagga Wagga even if that person starts the journey from Melbourne, despite the fact that the person will pass through Wodonga before getting to Albury - it is simply a standard usage pattern. But contrary to the confident assertions about the location of Bethphage, no-one is certain of its exact location anyway. Way too much confidence placed on conjecture for this argument to be viable (on the basis of current knowledge).

      Sidon to Galilee via the Decapolis: The return trip might be the equivalent of going from London to Paris via Hamburg, but no more than that - more likely via Amsterdam. According to Mark, Jesus went from Galilee to the region of Tyre which includes Sidon (Mark doesn't mention the route, so it is reasonable to assume he took the most common paths), spent some time in the region, and went from Sidon to the Galilee via the Decapolis: working a circuit seems perfectly normal conduct for an itinerant preacher. In the ordinary course, mention of the route taken is likely to indicate that there was a detour.
      Years and years ago this came up in Bible class and the minister then pointed out that the main road from Jericho to Jerusalem bypasses Bethany and Bethpage, but that it also goes by Mount Olivet where several key events in Jesus' ministry took place. IOW, Jesus frequented Mount Olivet and if he did so then it would have been rather easy for him to continue on through Bethphage then Bethany and into Jerusalem.

      IOW, this is not much of a mystery.

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        And there we have it folks. They were against the outrages of the Priesthood and Temple. IOW, reformers.

        No evidence for the claim that they were, as claimed, "progressive socialists."
        Yup - He wasn't setting up a socialist government, or in any way endorsing one.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by eider View Post
          You think this is trolling?
          Pretty much.

          And enemy of Jesus?
          According to Jesus, "He that is not with me is against me".


          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Yup - He wasn't setting up a socialist government, or in any way endorsing one.
            And given the examples that I provided from His parables (particularly the parable of the talents -- Matthew 25:14-30) wasn't too keen on the philosophy behind it.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Years and years ago this came up in Bible class and the minister then pointed out that the main road from Jericho to Jerusalem bypasses Bethany and Bethpage, but that it also goes by Mount Olivet where several key events in Jesus' ministry took place. IOW, Jesus frequented Mount Olivet and if he did so then it would have been rather easy for him to continue on through Bethphage then Bethany and into Jerusalem.

              IOW, this is not much of a mystery.
              No one has, as yet, suggested that this is "a mystery". The fact remains that Goodacre, Winn, Nineham and even Cranfield writing in the late 1950s, acknowledge that the anonymous author of Mark's gospel had little first hand knowledge of the geography of the region.

              As Helms [a literary critic and English professor] goes on to note in the quote provided by Kirby, "However, the important location is the Mount of Olives; typology, not history, is at work: here."
              .
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Years and years ago this came up in Bible class and the minister then pointed out that the main road from Jericho to Jerusalem bypasses Bethany and Bethpage, but that it also goes by Mount Olivet where several key events in Jesus' ministry took place. IOW, Jesus frequented Mount Olivet and if he did so then it would have been rather easy for him to continue on through Bethphage then Bethany and into Jerusalem.

                IOW, this is not much of a mystery.
                Not to mention Luke:
                19:29 When He approached Bethphage and Bethany ( βηθσφαγη και βηθανιαν), near the mount that is called Olivet, He sent two of the disciples

                Compared with Mark:
                11:1 As they *approached Jerusalem, at Bethphage and Bethany, (βηθσφαγη και βηθανιαν) near the Mount of Olives, He *sent two of His disciples,

                No mystery at all - well, how the story (that this record somehow supports the idea that Mark didn't know the geography) ever gained any traction IS a mystery.
                No certainty attaches to the proposed site for Bethphage.
                The story that there is an error is built upon a solid foundation of questionable assumptions.

                If the site is correct, which of the two would be the first passed through depends on whether the traveller was approaching from the east or the north, with Jericho's location making either approach viable.
                And yes, it does not seem that Bethany was not on the main route, though Bethphage may have been. However, early(ish) report has Bethphage as a small collection of houses to either side of the road, so Bethany may have simply been provided as a landmark. In any event, the two seem to have been separated by less than a kilometre.

                Hypatia_Alexandria :Who is the regius professor of divinity that you referred to?
                Last edited by tabibito; 10-27-2021, 07:59 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  No one has, as yet, suggested that this is "a mystery". The fact remains that Goodacre, Winn, Nineham and even Cranfield writing in the late 1950s, acknowledge that the anonymous author of Mark's gospel had little first hand knowledge of the geography of the region.

                  As Helms [a literary critic and English professor] goes on to note in the quote provided by Kirby, "However, the important location is the Mount of Olives; typology, not history, is at work: here."
                  .
                  It appears that their "acknowledge[ment]" that Mark "had little first hand knowledge of the geography of the region" falls flat when you look at the evidence. Maybe there is a reason that nobody talks much about their "acknowledge[ment]" these days.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by eider View Post
                    Really? Brothers (and Sisters) often share inheritances ....
                    Indeed. And non relatives are often included as well. And on the other side, it is not uncommon for relatives, including children, to be disinherited and left absolutely nothing. In fact it was fairly common for centuries for the oldest son to inherit everything, with younger siblings getting married off (sisters) or joining the military (brothers) or the church (both).

                    What is your point?

                    Originally posted by eider View Post
                    The Baptist:
                    Luke {3:11} He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

                    Moses:-
                    Deuteronomy {15:11} .................. Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

                    Jesus:
                    Mark , {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
                    What does any of those have to do with an inheritance? For all we know the brothers were both rich or at least not poor (that there was an inheritance to split at all indicates that they weren't poor) meaning none of those verses are pertinent.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by eider View Post
                      Well, you got the first bit right.
                      Jesus did not believe in people hoarding riches, imo....especially when others could not afford the security of a home, food or warmth..


                      Show me where Jesus stole from his rich friends to give to the poor.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        It appears that their "acknowledge[ment]" that Mark "had little first hand knowledge of the geography of the region" falls flat when you look at the evidence.
                        Only to those who hold to the notion that the bible is inerrant and that the four canonical gospels were written by four individuals who knew the man we know as Jesus of Nazareth; and that their names were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John,

                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Maybe there is a reason that nobody talks much about their "acknowledge[ment]" these days.
                        I think you will find that Mark Goodacre is alive and well and still at Duke University, and that Adam Winn is still at UMHB.

                        .
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          I stand by what I have written. There was no progressive socialism in first century CE Palestine [or indeed anywhere else in the ancient world].
                          I acknowledge your opinion about that.
                          But my opinion is that The Baptist and Jesus (who you might not believe in) certainly wanted to end the oppressive, greedy, hypocritical, corrupt Priesthood and Temple practices.... hence what they said and did. Since I think that they failed in their attempts you can feel comfortable in your standpoint.
                          I'm simply telling that they most certainly tried, and thus were progressive socialists.

                          Can you understand that?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            It appears that their "acknowledge[ment]" that Mark "had little first hand knowledge of the geography of the region" falls flat when you look at the evidence. Maybe there is a reason that nobody talks much about their "acknowledge[ment]" these days.
                            "Little first hand knowledge of geography" Possibly, even probably true - and thoroughly meaningless as a criticism. Not many people have an extensive first hand knowledge of geography.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              And there we have it folks. They were against the outrages of the Priesthood and Temple. IOW, reformers.

                              No evidence for the claim that they were, as claimed, "progressive socialists."
                              Any attempt to end the outrages of Priesthood and within Temple was an attempt at progression and had social values.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                I did. You even acknowledged them.

                                You aren't to keen on honesty are you?
                                Nah......... Can't remember anything of substance from you.
                                Just waffle.

                                Comment

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