Originally posted by eider
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?
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Originally posted by eider View PostBut it seems that much of what Jesus said is 'quote mining'...yes?
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I have never understood the mission to bend over backwards in defense of errors within the Bible. So what if the Bible contains errors? Some seem to believe that if errors exist in the Bible, then the entire universe will unravel, or that God somehow can't work with imperfect tools. My view has always been to take the errors into context and appreciate the overall story.
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostI have never understood the mission to bend over backwards in defense of errors within the Bible. So what if the Bible contains errors? Some seem to believe that if errors exist in the Bible, then the entire universe will unravel, or that God somehow can't work with imperfect tools. My view has always been to take the errors into context and appreciate the overall story.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by eider View Post
You cannot have paid much attention to what Jesus said, MM.
He showed beyond any doubt that storing up, hiding away, secreting ..wealth, is wrong.
Jesus clearly didn't like greed, unreasonable wealth, unreasonable poverty.
Or do you disagree with what he said...and did?
Pro tip: parables should not be taken literally.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by eider View Post
You can help me MM.
Teach me.
Show me what Jesus did or said that supports unreasonable wealth, hoarding wealth, discarding 9any) disability ....?
Teach a moron like me, that Jesus did not want to progress out of that wicked system, that corrupt unfair divide.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by eider View Post
Not at all..........Right up to that last week Jesus was demonstrating, campaigning, debating for social progression away from Temple and Priesthood corruption.
It's in the gospels.
Just like progressive socialists always do
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by eider View PostHe didn't promote taxation for the gain of fat leaders.....of course not.
As a Galilean working man he was totally against the local taxation....it was very very hard indeed.
Studies outside the bible strongly suggest that, and since I don't believe that the boatmen of the lake were mild meek gentle-folks looking up to heaven but very hardened toughs (to survive) I feel confident to suggest that they needed scams for survival. Their night run down the Gadarenes is a joy to read..... where the pagans were...and all those pigs which they would have eaten. THey went down there to deal with them...no doubt in my mind. The lake had huge catfish in it which would often have got caught up in their nets, which they couldn't sell to Jews (carrion eaters), so any sensible boatmen would take them to sell to the pagans...night runs.
Have you seen how oppressive the taxation in Galilee and around the lake was? Really wicked. Zebedee must have been very very clever, and very very tough to survive.
I'll answer your other points next post.
fishing a.JPG
What exactly is your point?
And why do you call Jews "carrion eaters"?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by eider View PostYes it is.
No. Socialism is when 'the people' support taxation to fulfil their needs.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostFunny how you have to make up your own definitions for words to support your nonsense. You wouldn't happen to know a Jorge Fernandez by chance?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by eider View Post
Socialism is all about the people wanting to put in in order to get services out for the good of all.
And certainly socialism is against fat greedy rich folks from hiding away their riches in order to avoid or evade taxation. That's the kind of thing the Priesthood was probably up to, reading Jesus's words.
And show me a socialist leader who isn't a "fat greedy rich folk" and I'll show you 20 who are.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by eider View Post
Jesus was a Galilean....... Romans were not taxing Galileans (although Rome took a cut), Levites were the taxation officials up there.
Celcus (not a Christian's friend) wrote that there were ten boatmen and TWO tax officers with Jesus, most interesting, and since Judas was a money man, bag holder, etc and had a very nasty nickname from his past, I think he was the other tax officer.... but that's just my impression.
Galileans in Jesus' time paid three taxes (although they had different names). A tribute to Rome, taxes to Herod and tithes and offerings to the Temple and priesthood.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Gee I can play semantics too. Jesus took 2 fish and multiplied them. That's PROFIT! Jesus was a Capitalist! That is basically how you are arguing Jesus was "progressive" and a "socialist" -- by playing semantic games.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Assuming that the location of Bethphage has been correctly identified, coming to Bethphage from the north (necessary if Bethphage is the first to be reached) would place Jerusalem on the right, and Bethany on the left - that is, to get to Bethany on the way to Jerusalem, the traveller would have to detour. Approaching from the east, the traveller would reach Bethany first. Jericho is to the north and east of Bethany, so it would depend on whether the traveller first went south from Jericho and then turned west (reach Bethany first), or west from Jericho and turned south (reach Bethphage first.)
Bethany - Bethphage.jpg
But it does not seem that Mark intended to provide an itinerary. What does a first century reader do with a map? How would a first century writer present the place names in accord with a map? Look at that map as it would have been presented in the first century - the first century writer would have read the map from top to bottom, as we would in like circumstances - but - the first century map had east at the top, not north. Maps were oriented (note the significance of that word) for the rising sun until the compass became a thing. Reading in first century map order, which town comes first?
Bethany - Bethphage Oriented.jpg
it is clear that he veered off the main approach from Jericho and took the trail that led to Mount Olivet. From there it would have been natural to continue on to Jerusalem from there by way of Bethphage and Bethany -- and in that order -- rather than to turn around and head back to the main road.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Evidence supporting this majority opinion isn't particularly compelling. Internal evidence available from Luke shows that he was a companion traveller with Paul.
It would appear that whoever wrote Acts was a gentile and male and clearly had some Greek education. However, that the writer was a companion of Paul seems unlikely. The writer's knowledge of geography is also questionable. He seems familiar with the region around the Aegean Sea that divides modern-day Greece from Turkey and shows a knowledge of the cities of that region. However, when the narrative moves inland the geographical details become more vague. Furthermore, reading Acts no one would realise that Antioch and Lystra were Roman colonies as no local, provincial, or imperial officials appear in the texts for those cities. if one relied on Acts as a sole historical source one could imagine that the cities of southern Asia Minor were governed entirely by mobs
Originally posted by tabibito View PostHelms ... Helms. Oh yes, the professor of English Literature. Surely you could come up with an author who is actually accredited in the field of Biblical literature
I also recall you were somewhat dismissive of a regius professor of divinity's opinions because, presumably, they did not agree with your own.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
So the claim is that Matthew misread the text of Zechariah and invented a story to make the event fit with the (misunderstood) prophecy. But that misreading would involve the same kind of error that is needed to have Jesus being in two different places when he instructed his disciples to collect the colt. If such a misreading were in play, Matthew's record, not Luke's, would conform with that of Mark.
It should also be remembered that these texts were initially "stand alone" and written for each author's specific community, and each author added their own colour and texture [narrative embellishment]. It was only when the canon was being decided that these four texts with their divergent internal narratives were brought together in the anthology we know as the New Testament.
When placed side by side in that manner a dispassionate and critical reader can easily determine the internal contradictions and differences found within those texts.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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