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Was Jesus a Progressive Socialist?

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  • Originally posted by eider View Post
    Promotion of fair Taxation is not theft surely?
    Are you alleging that Jesus was 'promoting fair Taxation'?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by eider View Post
      Really? Brothers (and Sisters) often share inheritances ....

      The Baptist:
      Luke {3:11} He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

      Moses:-
      Deuteronomy {15:11} .................. Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

      Jesus:
      Mark , {10:23} And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!


      You think this is trolling?
      And enemy of Jesus?
      It seems more that you are arguing for Moses to be the progressive socialist.
      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • Originally posted by eider View Post

        I was writing to Cow Poke who wrote:-
        They wanted Jesus to enforce social welfare.

        (As I recall, Jesus wasn't so keen on that notion)

        Which part of that didn't you understand?
        So "they wanted Jesus to enforce social welfare." And how did he respond? Did He "enforce social welfare"? If not, doesn't that sort of deflate your contention that His goal was to "enforce social welfare"?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          So "they wanted Jesus to enforce social welfare." And how did he respond? Did He "enforce social welfare"? If not, doesn't that sort of deflate your contention that His goal was to "enforce social welfare"?
          That was my point - if ever there was an opportunity for Jesus to expound upon Social Welfare, He missed it.

          He clearly wanted no part of that little squabble.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by eider View Post

            Jesus was not a thief, Sparko. And the promotion of the OT poor laws, and his repeated sayings which covered greed, hoarding wealth and excess were not inciting theft.
            But he did cause mayhem in Anna's bazaar, picket the Temple Courts and make speech to the people. And he returned the next day to do some of thos things.

            Promotion of fair Taxation is not theft surely?


            EDIT: Please do come back about this........ can we debate the point you have put forward?
            He didn't promote taxation either. He merely said that Peter should pay the tax to Caesar because it was Caesar's money. He wasn't getting involved. He was not there to foment rebellion against the secular government. And the OT laws were about, again, sharing. Sharing is not socialism. Socialism is when the government decides that it needs to step in and force "sharing" by taking away (taxing) the rich and giving to the poor in order to make everyone equally poor, while keeping a lion's share for those who do the governing. Nobody here is against caring and sharing voluntarily. That is not "socialism" that is "charity"

            We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              He didn't promote taxation either. He merely said that Peter should pay the tax to Caesar because it was Caesar's money. He wasn't getting involved. He was not there to foment rebellion against the secular government. And the OT laws were about, again, sharing. Sharing is not socialism. Socialism is when the government decides that it needs to step in and force "sharing" by taking away (taxing) the rich and giving to the poor in order to make everyone equally poor, while keeping a lion's share for those who do the governing. Nobody here is against caring and sharing voluntarily. That is not "socialism" that is "charity"

              We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.
              Christians are supposed to share. To help those in need. But as I've repeatedly pointed out socialism is not the same as charity. Not even a little bit. Socialism is effectively coveting being enforced by law.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                He didn't promote taxation either. He merely said that Peter should pay the tax to Caesar because it was Caesar's money. He wasn't getting involved. He was not there to foment rebellion against the secular government. And the OT laws were about, again, sharing. Sharing is not socialism. Socialism is when the government decides that it needs to step in and force "sharing" by taking away (taxing) the rich and giving to the poor in order to make everyone equally poor, while keeping a lion's share for those who do the governing. Nobody here is against caring and sharing voluntarily. That is not "socialism" that is "charity"

                We don't need no stinking government to do it for us.
                There were actually two incidents with Jesus and taxation.

                The first was the Temple Tax (Matt 17:24-27), not the Roman tax, and was required of all military age men (Exodus 30, 2 Kings 12, Nehemiah 10) and was being demanded by the religious leaders. Jesus had Peter pay it for Himself and Peter (making one wonder about the other Disciples - why just these two? Some have suggested that the other disciples were not yet of military age )
                And Jesus was not endorsing it - he had Peter pay the tax to avoid a battle with the Jewish leaders.

                The other was the Roman Tax about which Jesus said “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.”

                But Jesus was not promoting taxation.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • There is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.
                  1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    There is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.
                    I think "appropriate" would be a stretch. Tolerable or acceptable, I think, would be a better choice of words.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      I think "appropriate" would be a stretch. Tolerable or acceptable, I think, would be a better choice of words.
                      I have no problem with "acceptable." But perhaps some might argue that it was only because taxes weren't being used for social welfare programmes ...

                      1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        There is nothing to show that Jesus had anything against taxation. Not so much as a murmur of protest. "Rendering to Caesar what is Caesar's" indicates that he considered the tax appropriate.
                        He was essentially saying to just give the government what they want instead of making a fuss about it. That is not a ringing endorsement.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          I have no problem with "acceptable." But perhaps some might argue that it was only because taxes weren't being used for social welfare programmes ...
                          OR that the Roman Army would come down hard on you if you didn't pay, and Jesus didn't need to tangle with the Roman Army.

                          But, yeah, I don't see it as any kind of endorsement at all of taxation.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Sadly for your narrative, I don't subscribe to any of that.
                            The comments on Mark's lack of first hand knowledge of the region is indicative that the writer of this text was not au fait with the area. That textual evidence therefore makes it clear that this text was not written either in that region and or by someone known to Jesus of Nazareth.

                            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            The same is true of a number of people who object to nonsense being palmed off as scholarly evaluation.
                            You have chosen to reply to my comment to rogue06 where I wrote "Only to those who hold to the notion that the bible is inerrant and that the four canonical gospels were written by four individuals who knew the man we know as Jesus of Nazareth; and that their names were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John" and in that reply have stated "Sadly for your narrative, I don't subscribe to any of that",


                            If you do not "subscribe to any of that" what issue do you have with recognising that the author of Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world and certainly never knew the man we call Jesus of Nazareth?


                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


                              If you do not "subscribe to any of that" what issue do you have with recognising that the author of Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world and certainly never knew the man we call Jesus of Nazareth?

                              I have an issue with speculation being presented as fact.
                              CLAIM: Mark was never personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth. accepted - on the basis of known facts, with no contradictory evidence available.
                              CLAIM: Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world. accepted - highly probable.
                              CLAIM: Mark was wrong about particulars of locations. rejected - speculative assessment for which opposing speculation is equally viable. And some of those speculations have in fact been demonstrated false. (this is of course limited to points that have been entered into discussion and which I have considered. It is of course, not a blanket assessment of all the points that might be raised.)
                              1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                I have an issue with speculation being presented as fact.
                                CLAIM: Mark was never personally acquainted with Jesus of Nazareth. accepted - on the basis of known facts, with no contradictory evidence available.
                                CLAIM: Mark was not overly familiar with that part of the world. accepted - highly probable.
                                CLAIM: Mark was wrong about particulars of locations. rejected - speculative assessment for which opposing speculation is equally viable. And some of those speculations have in fact been demonstrated false. (this is of course limited to points that have been entered into discussion and which I have considered. It is of course, not a blanket assessment of all the points that might be raised.)
                                There is an interesting passage in Mark's Gospel:
                                A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they *seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked. (Mark 14:51)
                                This is one of the very few accounts in Mark's Gospel not found in the others. Some have speculated that this incident is a cameo appearance of Mark himself, in which he added his own personal experience. If that were the case, then Mark would definitely have some knowledge of the geography of the area.
                                When I Survey....

                                Comment

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