Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.[7] These "revisionist" authors argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7]
As bad as the Documentary Hypothesis is, the proposed alternatives seem not much better - inasmuch that proponents have a habit of finding inconsistencies where none exist. I can't claim to have investigated every claim of inconsistency, but those that I have don't pan out.
[5] Carr, David M. (2014). "Changes in Pentateuchal Criticism, p 436. - [As early as] 1928 it was proposed that any multiple sources that might have existed did so at the pre-literary level. {{the proposal seems tenable}}
[7] Van Seters, John (2015), pp 28-29. The Pentateuch: A Social-Science Commentary - Three models of compositional structure have been proposed. 1/ The "Fragmentary/Story-cycle/Block Model." Individual stories or blocks were brought together and imperfectly collated. 2/ "The Supplementation or Expansion of a Basic Text Model" The basic content of the Torah has been supplemented or expanded, with those additions introducing inconsistencies and discontinuity to the original coherent text 3/ "The Source/Document/Literary Strata Model" Inconsistencies in the Pentateuch result from varied sources, "while the breaks in coherence and cohesion point to the redactional activity of combining them."
So - JEDP is dead in the water.Last edited by tabibito; 11-25-2021, 11:22 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by seer View Post
People whom don't have these experiences are rather odd too - like you..."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
This is about me, isn't it?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
You know nothing about me.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostHarry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?
Care to make some other half-baked brainless quips?
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostOn the contrary many fictitious individuals are placed in real world settings. Just think of Hugo's Les Miserables, or Lindsey Davis' first century "detective" Marcus Didius Falco, or the saucy goings-on of Ann Golon's Angélique at the court of Le Roi Soleil..
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
The point of all that talk is, that the Christian experience of God is somewhat like human friendship. It is subjective, dynamic, alive, inter-personal, transcendent, not reducible to human calculation, dialogical, heart-to-heart. Not a quantitative, measurable, material, ecumenically verifiable object in the universe. There are differences between "Friendship" with God & human friendship, but there are also similarities; so the comparison is limited, but not wholly valueless.
That is why C. S. Lewis' Aslan, the equivalent of Christ in Narnia, "is not a tame lion". He could not be shown to unbelievers, as though he were a lapdog subject to human whims & manipulation. And neither can the Christ in Whom Christians believe and hope. That is why appeals to Christians (on YouTube, say) to "show me your God" cannot be complied with - the God in Whom we trust, is not our plaything, but (so we believe) the Creator of our being, our existence, and our lives. We are (in some sense) from this God, as being His handiwork - He is not from us, nor in any way subject to us.
That does not reply to all that you asked, but I hope it helps.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Not to their face. However, some of these people who claim to have had these experiences are often rather odd.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post[/INDENT]
And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post[/INDENT]
And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
Do tell us all how you consider that he was an "eye-witness" to events in Judaea and Galilee the late 30s CE.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo there really is/was a Harry Potter? Same with Ron and Hermione?
Care to make some other half-baked brainless quips?
However, the Rostovs, and Pierre Bezukhov are fictitious characters in Tolstoy's work.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Posthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.[7] These "revisionist" authors argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7]
As bad as the Documentary Hypothesis is, the proposed alternatives seem not much better - inasmuch that proponents have a habit of finding inconsistencies where none exist. I can't claim to have investigated every claim of inconsistency, but those that I have don't pan out.
[5] Carr, David M. (2014). "Changes in Pentateuchal Criticism, p 436. - [As early as] 1928 it was proposed that any multiple sources that might have existed did so at the pre-literary level. {{the proposal seems tenable}}
[7] Van Seters, John (2015), pp 28-29. The Pentateuch: A Social-Science Commentary - Three models of compositional structure have been proposed. 1/ The "Fragmentary/Story-cycle/Block Model." Individual stories or blocks were brought together and imperfectly collated. 2/ "The Supplementation or Expansion of a Basic Text Model" The basic content of the Torah has been supplemented or expanded, with those additions introducing inconsistencies and discontinuity to the original coherent text 3/ "The Source/Document/Literary Strata Model" Inconsistencies in the Pentateuch result from varied sources, "while the breaks in coherence and cohesion point to the redactional activity of combining them."
So - JEDP is dead in the water.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Should we take it that H_A believes that only people who don't believe what they say are credible?
They demand testimony attesting to a miracle from someone who isn't a Christian because they'd be biased.
But what sort of person do they expect to find? Someone who can testify to the veracity of a miracle -- but still chooses not to believe? I doubt there are many folks like that.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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