Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    In that they appear to be so few and far between. One might expect this deity to be a little more pro-active.
    Pro active? Like supporting every breath that you take?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


      Does he provide independent medical attestation for all these "miracles"?
      Many, not all.


      Do these "miracles" only occur for Americans?
      Definitely not. In fact, he, like others have before him, repeatedly notes that the most dramatic and frequent accounts occur in places just being reached with the Gospel, and in places where there are "power encounters" between the Christian God and pagan deities.


      Does he offer a suggestion for why this deity so selective and arbitrary in who It decides to cure?

      For example, why one older lady in a nursing home and one young woman with MS but not all those suffering from MS or all older people experiencing difficulties in walking?
      The basic reason as to why only a relative few get miracles is that in this age, we unfortunately only get the occasional sample of the blessings of the next age.

      As to why some particular persons get those blessings now, no, and he admits he doesn't know. Nor did he have a good, solid answer for the girl he interviewed, who, while happy and grateful for her healing, wondered why God allowed her to suffer pain and disability, and her parents to suffer grief, for fifteen years before healing her.

      Might Dr Keener might have fallen of his perch?
      And landed on his head? He jokes that his students sometimes think there's something wrong with his head.
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Restoring a man three or four days dead to life - within medical recovery expectation ... Yep, I can see that.
        Except you didn't see that (the alleged "resurrection"), did you. And neither, I suspect, did anybody else.

        Any number of reasons why explicit mention of restored missing limbs might be omitted from the Biblical record
        Occam might suggest that the number one reason, is that actual miracles, of the sort for which a regenerated limb would qualify, don't occur outside apologetics literature.


        When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
        - Anonymous

        When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
        “His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Markus River View Post

          Except you didn't see that (the alleged "resurrection"), did you. And neither, I suspect, did anybody else.
          The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.

          Occam might suggest that the number one reason, is that actual miracles, of the sort for which a regenerated limb would qualify, don't occur outside apologetics literature.
          Occam would suggest that any demonstrable miracle would support the possibility of other types of miracle.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.
            Experts in the diagnosis of, say, catatonia were they? Otherwise, they were simply ignorant laymen who saw what they wanted to see.

            Also the biblical records show there were witnesses to the parting of the red sea, a world consuming flood and the sun and moon standing still. And yet I still find them hard to believe as well.


            Occam would suggest that any demonstrable miracle would support the possibility of other types of miracle.
            First show any demonstrable miracle, before positing the possibility of others.
            Last edited by Markus River; 11-22-2021, 04:34 AM.
            When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
            - Anonymous

            When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
            “His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Markus River View Post

              Experts in the diagnosis of, say, catatonia were they?
              Interesting point. That they weren't is documented in the Bible. However, the person who could and did make a diagnosis of catatonia is the same that declared Lazarus to be dead and resurrected him. Note also that the Bible's witness that Jesus made that diagnosis of catatonia (which he termed "sleep" - it is doubtful that a suitable word would have been available at the time) is usually rejected.

              Also the biblical records show there were witnesses to the parting of the red sea, a world consuming flood and the sun and moon standing still. And yet I still find them hard to believe as well.
              The report of the Red Sea can be accepted. But "hard to believe" is no criterion by which to judge fact. There are plenty of people who deny that masks and inoculation have any benefit against Covid at all (based on evidence that they are not 100% effective). There are people who find witness testimony that men have walked on the moon wholly lacking in credibility, and people who find witness testimony that global warming is a reality equally lacking in credibility. There are people who have witnessed and even performed miracles who have to fight their own incredulity to acknowledge the fact (and I would be surprised if reality always comes out the victor). There seems little reason to find incredulity a suitable benchmark for establishing what is factual.

              First show any demonstrable miracle, before positing the possibility of others.
              It would be kind of difficult to produce demonstrable evidence of miracles: they tend to be transitory events that leave only witnesses to show that they have occurred.** And of course - a witness is only deemed as reliable as the audience is willing to believe. Speaking of which - Paul's witness that members of a congregation were witnessing and even performing miracles in his absence did not have the congregation in question saying, "What? Nothing like that is happening. Has he been eating mushrooms again?"

              ** historically that is. In modern times there should be at least the occasional medical record to support instances of healing. But of course, even they would be declared fake by a large number of people.
              Last edited by tabibito; 11-22-2021, 05:04 AM.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                Many, not all.
                Therein lies a problem. Furthermore how long did these cures last? Nor can we rule out sheer coincidence or that some of these conditions were psychosomatic in origin.


                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                Definitely not. In fact, he, like others have before him, repeatedly notes that the most dramatic and frequent accounts occur in places just being reached with the Gospel, and in places where there are "power encounters" between the Christian God and pagan deities.
                I was looking at his two volume work on Miracles in the NT and in that he looks at other non-western cultures.

                I think that it also needs to be remembered that the performing of miracles and a believe in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world across societies [Jewish and non Jewish]. Exorcisms to remove evil spirits, invocations, divination, omens, portents, protective amulets, the power of curses and spells, all these various beliefs underlaid ancient societies. For Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries the belief existed that in the realm above the earth were to be found demons, angels, and gods of various sorts. These "many gods" whose existence even Paul acknowledges in I Corinthians 8.5 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords".

                It is therefore hardly surprising that Jesus was regarded as a wonder-worker [γόητες- goētes] and that within the later Hellenistic world he was a magician.

                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                The basic reason as to why only a relative few get miracles is that in this age, we unfortunately only get the occasional sample of the blessings of the next age.
                An interesting observation but one I do not share. More to the point is the problem of defining a miracle and that depends on an understanding of the physical world. One can only imagine, had we the ability to time travel, what the reaction of our 16th century forebears would be towards a digital camera or a portable DVD player. Or how doctors of the period would react to a demonstration of anti-biotics or what they could see under a microscope.

                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                As to why some particular persons get those blessings now, no, and he admits he doesn't know. Nor did he have a good, solid answer for the girl he interviewed, who, while happy and grateful for her healing, wondered why God allowed her to suffer pain and disability, and her parents to suffer grief, for fifteen years before healing her.
                And therein lies the question that has never been adequately answered. If this deity has the power to alleviate the suffering of one person, why does It not do so for all?


                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                And landed on his head? He jokes that his students sometimes think there's something wrong with his head.
                It is certainly not unknown for academics to reject their rational backgrounds in favour of superstitions and other nonsense..

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Therein lies a problem. Furthermore how long did these cures last? Nor can we rule out sheer coincidence or that some of these conditions were psychosomatic in origin.
                  All the cures he cited have been permanent.

                  He intentionally avoided citing cases that could easily be explained as psychogenic or psychosomatic. He avoided the common "leg-lengthening" healings because they can easily involve manipulation, intentional or otherwise, by the "healer"; he included a few dramatic ones where the observable lengthening of many inches could not be obtained just by twisting and moving the seeker.

                  As to the "coincidence" part, thanks for confirming his observation that some people will always claim some answer other than "divine miracle."


                  I was looking at his two volume work on Miracles in the NT and in that he looks at other non-western cultures.

                  I think that it also needs to be remembered that the performing of miracles and a believe in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world across societies [Jewish and non Jewish]. Exorcisms to remove evil spirits, invocations, divination, omens, portents, protective amulets, the power of curses and spells, all these various beliefs underlaid ancient societies. For Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries the belief existed that in the realm above the earth were to be found demons, angels, and gods of various sorts. These "many gods" whose existence even Paul acknowledges in I Corinthians 8.5 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords".

                  It is therefore hardly surprising that Jesus was regarded as a wonder-worker [γόητες- goētes] and that within the later Hellenistic world he was a magician.
                  Of course. So?


                  An interesting observation but one I do not share. More to the point is the problem of defining a miracle and that depends on an understanding of the physical world. One can only imagine, had we the ability to time travel, what the reaction of our 16th century forebears would be towards a digital camera or a portable DVD player. Or how doctors of the period would react to a demonstration of anti-biotics or what they could see under a microscope.
                  Sure. Hence the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

                  But many or most of the healing and resuscitation accounts involve multiple witnesses, usually including trained medical personnel, and documentation, and are well beyond what could be considered "ordinary," if not outright medically impossible.

                  And therein lies the question that has never been adequately answered. If this deity has the power to alleviate the suffering of one person, why does It not do so for all?
                  Sure. And one wonders why only one seeker got healed at the pool at Bethesda in John 5. Interestingly, John does not record anyone there at the time wondering about it, nor wondering why God allowed the man to suffer 38 years before intervening.


                  It is certainly not unknown for academics to reject their rational backgrounds in favour of superstitions and other nonsense..
                  Nice to meet you, Festus.

                  Keener has been a supernaturalist and practicing Charismatic since soon after his conversion over 40 years ago. He has remarked that his research into miracle claims has somewhat adversely affected his reputation in the academic community, which he expected it would. IMO, anyone familiar with his non-academic works since at least the mid-'90s would not really find new reasons to be dismayed in his recent research.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I'm reminded of an old joke about two atheists and a Christian arguing over the existence of God. No matter what argument the Christian brought forth it was dismissed with a handwave and smug quotes from Dawkins and the like. The Christian was growing visibly frustrated and the atheists began mocking him by saying that it was two to one in favor of atheism so he lost.

                    Starting to feel discouraged the Christian looked toward the sky and prayed for some sort of inconvertible evidence for God's existence while the two atheist kept laughing that it's "two to one -- you lose."

                    Just then, the clouds parted and a celestial visage appeared in the sky and roared "Do not mock my servant for I am God and I exist!"

                    Stunned the two atheists turned and looked at each other.

                    Finally one turned, and after glancing heavenward, looked at the Christian, shrugged and said, "Fine. It's two to two. A tie."



                    I'll be leaving now. No need to get up. I know my way out.
                    News to me. Do Flying Spaghetti Monsters vote and roar?
                    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                    go with the flow the river knows . . .

                    Frank

                    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post

                      News to me. Do Flying Spaghetti Monsters vote and roar?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                        All the cures he cited have been permanent.

                        He intentionally avoided citing cases that could easily be explained as psychogenic or psychosomatic. He avoided the common "leg-lengthening" healings because they can easily involve manipulation, intentional or otherwise, by the "healer"; he included a few dramatic ones where the observable lengthening of many inches could not be obtained just by twisting and moving the seeker.

                        As to the "coincidence" part, thanks for confirming his observation that some people will always claim some answer other than "divine miracle."
                        I regret that I cannot share such beliefs. I am with @Marcus River on this. I want to see a human re-grow an amputated limb.
                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                        Of course. So?
                        It is therefore self evident that his "miracles" were not supernatural phenomena; nor was he the only one going around performing such apparent wonder-works. That in his world people believed in such things is no indication that genuine miracles took place.


                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                        Sure. Hence the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
                        And the more we know about the human mind, the human body, and the physical world, the more we can recognise that what are claimed to be miracles are in fact anything but.

                        One has to ask "Is it likely?"

                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        But many or most of the healing and resuscitation accounts involve multiple witnesses, usually including trained medical personnel, and documentation, and are well beyond what could be considered "ordinary," if not outright medically impossible.
                        Does his bibliography include academic works by others supporting his own contentions?


                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Sure. And one wonders why only one seeker got healed at the pool at Bethesda in John 5. Interestingly, John does not record anyone there at the time wondering about it, nor wondering why God allowed the man to suffer 38 years before intervening.
                        It is a story. And of course with all these miracles that Jesus is supposed to have performed no one did a follow up on those individuals six, twelve, or eighteen months later, to see how their cures were progressing.

                        Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.

                        Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                        Keener has been a supernaturalist and practicing Charismatic since soon after his conversion over 40 years ago. He has remarked that his research into miracle claims has somewhat adversely affected his reputation in the academic community, which he expected it would. IMO, anyone familiar with his non-academic works since at least the mid-'90s would not really find new reasons to be dismayed in his recent research.
                        It sounds as if he's always been on the delusional wing. He was born in 1960 and if he was converted "over 40 years ago" that would mean he was in his late teens/very early twenties when his conversion took place.


                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • I wonder what manuscripts from first century Judaea might have bearing on the Biblical record ... Oh - that's right; there are almost - or perhaps absolutely - no extant manuscripts of any kind from first century Judaea.

                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            I regret that I cannot share such beliefs. I am with @Marcus River on this. I want to see a human re-grow an amputated limb.
                            It is therefore self evident that his "miracles" were not supernatural phenomena; nor was he the only one going around performing such apparent wonder-works. That in his world people believed in such things is no indication that genuine miracles took place.
                            The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.


                            And the more we know about the human mind, the human body, and the physical world, the more we can recognise that what are claimed to be miracles are in fact anything but.

                            One has to ask "Is it likely?"
                            I believe most if not all of the cases he cites are sufficiently extraordinary and difficult to explain by naturalistic causes to qualify as divine miracles. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of recounting specific cases. Anyone who is interested can buy the book or look up some of the videos he's done online.


                            Does his bibliography include academic works by others supporting his own contentions?
                            There is no "bibliography" per se, nor is there any sort of index. There are substantial notes, but they are end-notes rather than footnotes. I find all of these facts to be annoyances, albeit minor ones. They are relatively common in his non-academic works, unfortunately.

                            I believe there are a *few* academic works of the kind you request embedded in the notes, but I'm not going to try to track them down. Based on the remarks in some of the endorsements in his prior two-volume academic work, to a large extent he is plowing new ground, and so it would not be surprising if supporting scholarly works are still rather rare. (Many of those endorsers are themselves respected scholars.)

                            It is a story. And of course with all these miracles that Jesus is supposed to have performed no one did a follow up on those individuals six, twelve, or eighteen months later, to see how their cures were progressing.
                            On p. 139, Keener cites Quadratus as noting that some of the people Jesus raised from the dead were still alive in his time; the end-note suggests a date ca. AD 70-130.

                            Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.

                            It sounds as if he's always been on the delusional wing. He was born in 1960 and if he was converted "over 40 years ago" that would mean he was in his late teens/very early twenties when his conversion took place.
                            Yes, he's about two months younger than I. He converted while in high school, so probably mid to late teens in age, mid to late '70s on the calendar, and as I understand it, began having supernatural experiences within months. I converted around the middle of my second year at college, a few months before turning 20, in early 1980. Apart from conversion itself, I didn't have any supernatural experiences until about four years later, and apart from glossolalia, have not had any in quite a few years.

                            I think his pursuit of this topic has the potential to cause some academic ripples. As I understand it, once upon a time it was taken as a given that "the supernatural" basically ended about 1900 years ago. I think Gordon Fee took some heat back in the day because he was a committed practicing Pentecostal, but also a scholar who managed to get recognition beyond Pentecostalism. In recent decades, "cessationism" has lost some traction, at least in a theoretical sense. Many scholars believe in at least the possibility that the charismata are still active, mainly because Scripture does not preclude it. But in practice, most would be even less faith-filled and expectant than the disciples hearing Rhoda's report in Acts 12 (not that I would be a lot better!). If Keener continues to pursue and publish such research, and especially if other scholars follow suit, it could push the academic community as a whole to move one way or the other.
                            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                            Beige Federalist.

                            Nationalist Christian.

                            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                            Justice for Matthew Perna!

                            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

                              The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.
                              Ancient peoples DID have a habit of attributing anything that they didn't understand to supernatural causes, so their records DO need careful evaluation. However, the Biblical records show a reluctance to accept just anything and everything as miraculous (at least among the prophets) - as where it is stated that an event could not be attributed to divine activity unless it was announced in advance. That admonition was probably ignored more often than it was kept in mind, for all that it was declared by a prophet.
                              The most interesting of the New Testament records of miracles emerges when the resurrection of Lazarus and the resuscitation of Jairus' daughter are compared. Jesus gets a report that Lazarus is sick, sits around for a few days and then heads for Bethany. No one tells him that Lazarus has died, but sight unseen he is able to declare that Lazarus is dead. He arrives in Bethany and sure enough, Lazarus has been interred.
                              Earlier, Jesus had received report that Jairus' daughter had died. He explicitly denied that she was dead - "She is not dead, but she is asleep." Sight unseen, he made a diagnosis of her condition. It is possible that even the chroniclers of the event were not fully aware of the significance of what they were recording. (though the assessment of ginosko as "know (as a fact)" may be questioned.)
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.


                                Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                200 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,518 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X