Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?
Collapse
X
-
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Does he provide independent medical attestation for all these "miracles"?
Do these "miracles" only occur for Americans?
Does he offer a suggestion for why this deity so selective and arbitrary in who It decides to cure?
For example, why one older lady in a nursing home and one young woman with MS but not all those suffering from MS or all older people experiencing difficulties in walking?
As to why some particular persons get those blessings now, no, and he admits he doesn't know. Nor did he have a good, solid answer for the girl he interviewed, who, while happy and grateful for her healing, wondered why God allowed her to suffer pain and disability, and her parents to suffer grief, for fifteen years before healing her.
Might Dr Keener might have fallen of his perch?Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Restoring a man three or four days dead to life - within medical recovery expectation ... Yep, I can see that.
Any number of reasons why explicit mention of restored missing limbs might be omitted from the Biblical record
When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
- Anonymous
When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
“His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by Markus River View Post
Except you didn't see that (the alleged "resurrection"), did you. And neither, I suspect, did anybody else.
Occam might suggest that the number one reason, is that actual miracles, of the sort for which a regenerated limb would qualify, don't occur outside apologetics literature.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.
Also the biblical records show there were witnesses to the parting of the red sea, a world consuming flood and the sun and moon standing still. And yet I still find them hard to believe as well.
Occam would suggest that any demonstrable miracle would support the possibility of other types of miracle.Last edited by Markus River; 11-22-2021, 04:34 AM.When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
- Anonymous
When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
“His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist
Comment
-
Originally posted by Markus River View Post
Experts in the diagnosis of, say, catatonia were they?
Also the biblical records show there were witnesses to the parting of the red sea, a world consuming flood and the sun and moon standing still. And yet I still find them hard to believe as well.
First show any demonstrable miracle, before positing the possibility of others.
** historically that is. In modern times there should be at least the occasional medical record to support instances of healing. But of course, even they would be declared fake by a large number of people.Last edited by tabibito; 11-22-2021, 05:04 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Many, not all.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostDefinitely not. In fact, he, like others have before him, repeatedly notes that the most dramatic and frequent accounts occur in places just being reached with the Gospel, and in places where there are "power encounters" between the Christian God and pagan deities.
I think that it also needs to be remembered that the performing of miracles and a believe in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world across societies [Jewish and non Jewish]. Exorcisms to remove evil spirits, invocations, divination, omens, portents, protective amulets, the power of curses and spells, all these various beliefs underlaid ancient societies. For Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries the belief existed that in the realm above the earth were to be found demons, angels, and gods of various sorts. These "many gods" whose existence even Paul acknowledges in I Corinthians 8.5 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords".
It is therefore hardly surprising that Jesus was regarded as a wonder-worker [γόητες- goētes] and that within the later Hellenistic world he was a magician.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostThe basic reason as to why only a relative few get miracles is that in this age, we unfortunately only get the occasional sample of the blessings of the next age.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostAs to why some particular persons get those blessings now, no, and he admits he doesn't know. Nor did he have a good, solid answer for the girl he interviewed, who, while happy and grateful for her healing, wondered why God allowed her to suffer pain and disability, and her parents to suffer grief, for fifteen years before healing her.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostAnd landed on his head? He jokes that his students sometimes think there's something wrong with his head.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostTherein lies a problem. Furthermore how long did these cures last? Nor can we rule out sheer coincidence or that some of these conditions were psychosomatic in origin.
He intentionally avoided citing cases that could easily be explained as psychogenic or psychosomatic. He avoided the common "leg-lengthening" healings because they can easily involve manipulation, intentional or otherwise, by the "healer"; he included a few dramatic ones where the observable lengthening of many inches could not be obtained just by twisting and moving the seeker.
As to the "coincidence" part, thanks for confirming his observation that some people will always claim some answer other than "divine miracle."
I was looking at his two volume work on Miracles in the NT and in that he looks at other non-western cultures.
I think that it also needs to be remembered that the performing of miracles and a believe in magical practises was commonplace throughout the ancient world across societies [Jewish and non Jewish]. Exorcisms to remove evil spirits, invocations, divination, omens, portents, protective amulets, the power of curses and spells, all these various beliefs underlaid ancient societies. For Jesus and his Jewish contemporaries the belief existed that in the realm above the earth were to be found demons, angels, and gods of various sorts. These "many gods" whose existence even Paul acknowledges in I Corinthians 8.5 "Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords".
It is therefore hardly surprising that Jesus was regarded as a wonder-worker [γόητες- goētes] and that within the later Hellenistic world he was a magician.
An interesting observation but one I do not share. More to the point is the problem of defining a miracle and that depends on an understanding of the physical world. One can only imagine, had we the ability to time travel, what the reaction of our 16th century forebears would be towards a digital camera or a portable DVD player. Or how doctors of the period would react to a demonstration of anti-biotics or what they could see under a microscope.
But many or most of the healing and resuscitation accounts involve multiple witnesses, usually including trained medical personnel, and documentation, and are well beyond what could be considered "ordinary," if not outright medically impossible.
And therein lies the question that has never been adequately answered. If this deity has the power to alleviate the suffering of one person, why does It not do so for all?
It is certainly not unknown for academics to reject their rational backgrounds in favour of superstitions and other nonsense..
Keener has been a supernaturalist and practicing Charismatic since soon after his conversion over 40 years ago. He has remarked that his research into miracle claims has somewhat adversely affected his reputation in the academic community, which he expected it would. IMO, anyone familiar with his non-academic works since at least the mid-'90s would not really find new reasons to be dismayed in his recent research.
Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI'm reminded of an old joke about two atheists and a Christian arguing over the existence of God. No matter what argument the Christian brought forth it was dismissed with a handwave and smug quotes from Dawkins and the like. The Christian was growing visibly frustrated and the atheists began mocking him by saying that it was two to one in favor of atheism so he lost.
Starting to feel discouraged the Christian looked toward the sky and prayed for some sort of inconvertible evidence for God's existence while the two atheist kept laughing that it's "two to one -- you lose."
Just then, the clouds parted and a celestial visage appeared in the sky and roared "Do not mock my servant for I am God and I exist!"
Stunned the two atheists turned and looked at each other.
Finally one turned, and after glancing heavenward, looked at the Christian, shrugged and said, "Fine. It's two to two. A tie."
I'll be leaving now. No need to get up. I know my way out.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
All the cures he cited have been permanent.
He intentionally avoided citing cases that could easily be explained as psychogenic or psychosomatic. He avoided the common "leg-lengthening" healings because they can easily involve manipulation, intentional or otherwise, by the "healer"; he included a few dramatic ones where the observable lengthening of many inches could not be obtained just by twisting and moving the seeker.
As to the "coincidence" part, thanks for confirming his observation that some people will always claim some answer other than "divine miracle."
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Of course. So?
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
Sure. Hence the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
One has to ask "Is it likely?"
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostBut many or most of the healing and resuscitation accounts involve multiple witnesses, usually including trained medical personnel, and documentation, and are well beyond what could be considered "ordinary," if not outright medically impossible.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostSure. And one wonders why only one seeker got healed at the pool at Bethesda in John 5. Interestingly, John does not record anyone there at the time wondering about it, nor wondering why God allowed the man to suffer 38 years before intervening.
Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostKeener has been a supernaturalist and practicing Charismatic since soon after his conversion over 40 years ago. He has remarked that his research into miracle claims has somewhat adversely affected his reputation in the academic community, which he expected it would. IMO, anyone familiar with his non-academic works since at least the mid-'90s would not really find new reasons to be dismayed in his recent research.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
I wonder what manuscripts from first century Judaea might have bearing on the Biblical record ... Oh - that's right; there are almost - or perhaps absolutely - no extant manuscripts of any kind from first century Judaea.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI regret that I cannot share such beliefs. I am with @Marcus River on this. I want to see a human re-grow an amputated limb.
It is therefore self evident that his "miracles" were not supernatural phenomena; nor was he the only one going around performing such apparent wonder-works. That in his world people believed in such things is no indication that genuine miracles took place.
And the more we know about the human mind, the human body, and the physical world, the more we can recognise that what are claimed to be miracles are in fact anything but.
One has to ask "Is it likely?"
Does his bibliography include academic works by others supporting his own contentions?
I believe there are a *few* academic works of the kind you request embedded in the notes, but I'm not going to try to track them down. Based on the remarks in some of the endorsements in his prior two-volume academic work, to a large extent he is plowing new ground, and so it would not be surprising if supporting scholarly works are still rather rare. (Many of those endorsers are themselves respected scholars.)
It is a story. And of course with all these miracles that Jesus is supposed to have performed no one did a follow up on those individuals six, twelve, or eighteen months later, to see how their cures were progressing.
Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.
It sounds as if he's always been on the delusional wing. He was born in 1960 and if he was converted "over 40 years ago" that would mean he was in his late teens/very early twenties when his conversion took place.
I think his pursuit of this topic has the potential to cause some academic ripples. As I understand it, once upon a time it was taken as a given that "the supernatural" basically ended about 1900 years ago. I think Gordon Fee took some heat back in the day because he was a committed practicing Pentecostal, but also a scholar who managed to get recognition beyond Pentecostalism. In recent decades, "cessationism" has lost some traction, at least in a theoretical sense. Many scholars believe in at least the possibility that the charismata are still active, mainly because Scripture does not preclude it. But in practice, most would be even less faith-filled and expectant than the disciples hearing Rhoda's report in Acts 12 (not that I would be a lot better!). If Keener continues to pursue and publish such research, and especially if other scholars follow suit, it could push the academic community as a whole to move one way or the other.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.
The most interesting of the New Testament records of miracles emerges when the resurrection of Lazarus and the resuscitation of Jairus' daughter are compared. Jesus gets a report that Lazarus is sick, sits around for a few days and then heads for Bethany. No one tells him that Lazarus has died, but sight unseen he is able to declare that Lazarus is dead. He arrives in Bethany and sure enough, Lazarus has been interred.
Earlier, Jesus had received report that Jairus' daughter had died. He explicitly denied that she was dead - "She is not dead, but she is asleep." Sight unseen, he made a diagnosis of her condition. It is possible that even the chroniclers of the event were not fully aware of the significance of what they were recording. (though the assessment of ginosko as "know (as a fact)" may be questioned.)1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
39 responses
200 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
Yesterday, 03:32 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
|
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-21-2024, 12:15 PM | ||
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
|
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 12:33 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
|
45 responses
305 views
1 like
|
Last Post 03-17-2024, 07:19 AM | ||
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
|
406 responses
2,518 views
2 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 05:49 PM
|
Comment