What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?

[tabibito]

From some. As I said -- or perhaps the intent underlying what I said -- I suspect his studies will uncover and bring to the surface already existing divisions in the academic community.

Quite possible. Challenges to the details of the Trinity doctrine simmered under the surface for quite some time before Kitamori and others pointed out that certain inconsistencies existed, but their work was largely unnoticed. When Moltmann expanded on their work, he had enough gravitas to bring the subject into the mainstream. A few hundred years earlier, blood would have been spilt.

[tabibito]

I find footnotes much more convenient than end-notes. I find indices useful. It annoys me, albeit mildly, when these preferences are not met.

Do you prefer Chicago or APA style? Used to be that I preferred Chicago, but with familiarity, I have found APA to be surprisingly the less intrusive.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I find footnotes much more convenient than end-notes. I find indices useful. It annoys me, albeit mildly, when these preferences are not met.

Oh I understand now.

No. It is written for a different audience than the earlier two-volume work. One might *loosely* analogize it to Fee's Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God compared to God's Empowering Presence.








From some. As I said -- or perhaps the intent underlying what I said -- I suspect his studies will uncover and bring to the surface already existing divisions in the academic community.

I shall have to seek out a copy. Having just watched Miracles (Part 1) [Talbot Chapel] on Youtube it is clear that Keener has some issues with various individuals engaged in so-called Higher Criticism. I wonder why?

[NorrinRadd]

I find it odd that you consider facts to be an "annoyance".

I find footnotes much more convenient than end-notes. I find indices useful. It annoys me, albeit mildly, when these preferences are not met.

Ah so this is not affecting to be an academic work?

No. It is written for a different audience than the earlier two-volume work. One might *loosely* analogize it to Fee's Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God compared to God's Empowering Presence.

Yes I've looked through that two volume work and read some of the reviews pertaining to it.


Another early Christian apologist.

You will forgive me but all this sounds far more likely to have some psychological basis.

"ripples"? I would suspect ridicule among many would be more appropriate.

From some. As I said -- or perhaps the intent underlying what I said -- I suspect his studies will uncover and bring to the surface already existing divisions in the academic community.

[tabibito]

While I would never openly mock someone who claims to have had such an experience

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

A fictional character in a fictional world undergoes a fictional resurrection witnessed by fictional characters is purely imaginary, therefore a real character in the real world undergoing a resurrection - the resurrection being attested by real people is purely imaginary.

The logic is ineffable.

To continue with the same "reasoning"

Also in the fictional world of Harry Potter, he travelled by fictional train (head ended by a fictional steam locomotive), lived in a fictional house, attended a fictional boarding school, which had a fictional dining hall and fictional dormitories, therefore trains, houses, boarding schools etc are purely imaginary.

On the contrary many fictitious individuals are placed in real world settings. Just think of Hugo's Les Miserables, or Lindsey Davis' first century "detective" Marcus Didius Falco, or the saucy goings-on of Ann Golon's Angélique at the court of Le Roi Soleil..

The point concerning narrative fiction is that these gospels contain such elements. You and others seem to consider these texts as we now have them to be verbatim and accurate accounts of events that they purport to recount;. They are no such thing. Yes there are real places and real people in those narratives but then so there are in Tolstoy's War and Peace.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.

Not at all. Certain ancient peoples had very little understanding of the physical world. It was the Greeks that turned the natural world from a "thou" into an "it".

And as previously stated the ancient world teemed with superstitions and the belief in malign and benign supernatural entities. Not all individuals believed all this of course in the first century CE [especially among the Greeks and the wider Hellenised world] but certainly among the ancient Semites, and in particular the Jews, demons were believed to be everywhere.

I believe most if not all of the cases he cites are sufficiently extraordinary and difficult to explain by naturalistic causes to qualify as divine miracles. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of recounting specific cases. Anyone who is interested can buy the book or look up some of the videos he's done online.

I shall have a look at some of these videos - thank you.

There is no "bibliography" per se, nor is there any sort of index. There are substantial notes, but they are end-notes rather than footnotes. I find all of these facts to be annoyances, albeit minor ones.

I find it odd that you consider facts to be an "annoyance".

They are relatively common in his non-academic works, unfortunately.

Ah so this is not affecting to be an academic work?

I believe there are a *few* academic works of the kind you request embedded in the notes, but I'm not going to try to track them down. Based on the remarks in some of the endorsements in his prior two-volume academic work, to a large extent he is plowing new ground, and so it would not be surprising if supporting scholarly works are still rather rare. (Many of those endorsers are themselves respected scholars.)

Yes I've looked through that two volume work and read some of the reviews pertaining to it.

On p. 139, Keener cites Quadratus as noting that some of the people Jesus raised from the dead were still alive in his time; the end-note suggests a date ca. AD 70-130.

Another early Christian apologist.

Yes, he's about two months younger than I. He converted while in high school, so probably mid to late teens in age, mid to late '70s on the calendar, and as I understand it, began having supernatural experiences within months.

You will forgive me but all this sounds far more likely to have some psychological basis.

I think his pursuit of this topic has the potential to cause some academic ripples.

"ripples"? I would suspect ridicule among many would be more appropriate.

As I understand it, once upon a time it was taken as a given that "the supernatural" basically ended about 1900 years ago. I think Gordon Fee took some heat back in the day because he was a committed practicing Pentecostal, but also a scholar who managed to get recognition beyond Pentecostalism. In recent decades, "cessationism" has lost some traction, at least in a theoretical sense. Many scholars believe in at least the possibility that the charismata are still active, mainly because Scripture does not preclude it. But in practice, most would be even less faith-filled and expectant than the disciples hearing Rhoda's report in Acts 12 (not that I would be a lot better!). If Keener continues to pursue and publish such research, and especially if other scholars follow suit, it could push the academic community as a whole to move one way or the other.

I think we can safely say that superstition and credulity still abound among large swathes of the western populations. Mystics, mediums, faith healers, and other charlatans [knowing or unknowing] still ply their [often highly lucrative] trades.

And among individuals there are those who claim to have had supernatural experiences and/or alien abductions..

While I would never openly mock someone who claims to have had such an experience, the underlying questions is "Did they actually see and experience what they think they saw and experienced?"

[tabibito]

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?

A fictional character in a fictional world undergoes a fictional resurrection witnessed by fictional characters is purely imaginary, therefore a real character in the real world undergoing a resurrection - the resurrection being attested by real people is purely imaginary.

The logic is ineffable.

To continue with the same "reasoning"

Also in the fictional world of Harry Potter, he travelled by fictional train (head ended by a fictional steam locomotive), lived in a fictional house, attended a fictional boarding school, which had a fictional dining hall and fictional dormitories, therefore trains, houses, boarding schools etc are purely imaginary.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The Biblical records show that there were witnesses to Lazarus' death and resurrection.

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?

[tabibito]

The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.

Ancient peoples DID have a habit of attributing anything that they didn't understand to supernatural causes, so their records DO need careful evaluation. However, the Biblical records show a reluctance to accept just anything and everything as miraculous (at least among the prophets) - as where it is stated that an event could not be attributed to divine activity unless it was announced in advance. That admonition was probably ignored more often than it was kept in mind, for all that it was declared by a prophet.
The most interesting of the New Testament records of miracles emerges when the resurrection of Lazarus and the resuscitation of Jairus' daughter are compared. Jesus gets a report that Lazarus is sick, sits around for a few days and then heads for Bethany. No one tells him that Lazarus has died, but sight unseen he is able to declare that Lazarus is dead. He arrives in Bethany and sure enough, Lazarus has been interred.
Earlier, Jesus had received report that Jairus' daughter had died. He explicitly denied that she was dead - "She is not dead, but she is asleep." Sight unseen, he made a diagnosis of her condition. It is possible that even the chroniclers of the event were not fully aware of the significance of what they were recording. (though the assessment of ginosko as "know (as a fact)" may be questioned.)

[NorrinRadd]

I regret that I cannot share such beliefs. I am with @Marcus River on this. I want to see a human re-grow an amputated limb.
It is therefore self evident that his "miracles" were not supernatural phenomena; nor was he the only one going around performing such apparent wonder-works. That in his world people believed in such things is no indication that genuine miracles took place.

The idea that the dominant worldview held that supernatural activities occurred makes it "self-evident" that such activities really do NOT occur is an interesting approach to logic.

And the more we know about the human mind, the human body, and the physical world, the more we can recognise that what are claimed to be miracles are in fact anything but.

One has to ask "Is it likely?"

I believe most if not all of the cases he cites are sufficiently extraordinary and difficult to explain by naturalistic causes to qualify as divine miracles. I'm not going to go down the rabbit hole of recounting specific cases. Anyone who is interested can buy the book or look up some of the videos he's done online.

Does his bibliography include academic works by others supporting his own contentions?

There is no "bibliography" per se, nor is there any sort of index. There are substantial notes, but they are end-notes rather than footnotes. I find all of these facts to be annoyances, albeit minor ones. They are relatively common in his non-academic works, unfortunately.

I believe there are a *few* academic works of the kind you request embedded in the notes, but I'm not going to try to track them down. Based on the remarks in some of the endorsements in his prior two-volume academic work, to a large extent he is plowing new ground, and so it would not be surprising if supporting scholarly works are still rather rare. (Many of those endorsers are themselves respected scholars.)

It is a story. And of course with all these miracles that Jesus is supposed to have performed no one did a follow up on those individuals six, twelve, or eighteen months later, to see how their cures were progressing.

On p. 139, Keener cites Quadratus as noting that some of the people Jesus raised from the dead were still alive in his time; the end-note suggests a date ca. AD 70-130.

Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.

It sounds as if he's always been on the delusional wing. He was born in 1960 and if he was converted "over 40 years ago" that would mean he was in his late teens/very early twenties when his conversion took place.

Yes, he's about two months younger than I. He converted while in high school, so probably mid to late teens in age, mid to late '70s on the calendar, and as I understand it, began having supernatural experiences within months. I converted around the middle of my second year at college, a few months before turning 20, in early 1980. Apart from conversion itself, I didn't have any supernatural experiences until about four years later, and apart from glossolalia, have not had any in quite a few years.

I think his pursuit of this topic has the potential to cause some academic ripples. As I understand it, once upon a time it was taken as a given that "the supernatural" basically ended about 1900 years ago. I think Gordon Fee took some heat back in the day because he was a committed practicing Pentecostal, but also a scholar who managed to get recognition beyond Pentecostalism. In recent decades, "cessationism" has lost some traction, at least in a theoretical sense. Many scholars believe in at least the possibility that the charismata are still active, mainly because Scripture does not preclude it. But in practice, most would be even less faith-filled and expectant than the disciples hearing Rhoda's report in Acts 12 (not that I would be a lot better!). If Keener continues to pursue and publish such research, and especially if other scholars follow suit, it could push the academic community as a whole to move one way or the other.

[tabibito]

I wonder what manuscripts from first century Judaea might have bearing on the Biblical record ... Oh - that's right; there are almost - or perhaps absolutely - no extant manuscripts of any kind from first century Judaea.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

All the cures he cited have been permanent.

He intentionally avoided citing cases that could easily be explained as psychogenic or psychosomatic. He avoided the common "leg-lengthening" healings because they can easily involve manipulation, intentional or otherwise, by the "healer"; he included a few dramatic ones where the observable lengthening of many inches could not be obtained just by twisting and moving the seeker.

As to the "coincidence" part, thanks for confirming his observation that some people will always claim some answer other than "divine miracle."

I regret that I cannot share such beliefs. I am with @Marcus River on this. I want to see a human re-grow an amputated limb.

Of course. So?

It is therefore self evident that his "miracles" were not supernatural phenomena; nor was he the only one going around performing such apparent wonder-works. That in his world people believed in such things is no indication that genuine miracles took place.

Sure. Hence the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

And the more we know about the human mind, the human body, and the physical world, the more we can recognise that what are claimed to be miracles are in fact anything but.

One has to ask "Is it likely?"

But many or most of the healing and resuscitation accounts involve multiple witnesses, usually including trained medical personnel, and documentation, and are well beyond what could be considered "ordinary," if not outright medically impossible.

Does his bibliography include academic works by others supporting his own contentions?

Sure. And one wonders why only one seeker got healed at the pool at Bethesda in John 5. Interestingly, John does not record anyone there at the time wondering about it, nor wondering why God allowed the man to suffer 38 years before intervening.

It is a story. And of course with all these miracles that Jesus is supposed to have performed no one did a follow up on those individuals six, twelve, or eighteen months later, to see how their cures were progressing.

Furthermore why do no near contemporary extraneous accounts mention these deeds? Josephus is silent on these events and Justus of Tiberias [a contemporary of Josephus] does not mention Jesus at all.

Keener has been a supernaturalist and practicing Charismatic since soon after his conversion over 40 years ago. He has remarked that his research into miracle claims has somewhat adversely affected his reputation in the academic community, which he expected it would. IMO, anyone familiar with his non-academic works since at least the mid-'90s would not really find new reasons to be dismayed in his recent research.

It sounds as if he's always been on the delusional wing. He was born in 1960 and if he was converted "over 40 years ago" that would mean he was in his late teens/very early twenties when his conversion took place.

[Kate22]

News to me. Do Flying Spaghetti Monsters vote and roar?

[shunyadragon]

I'm reminded of an old joke about two atheists and a Christian arguing over the existence of God. No matter what argument the Christian brought forth it was dismissed with a handwave and smug quotes from Dawkins and the like. The Christian was growing visibly frustrated and the atheists began mocking him by saying that it was two to one in favor of atheism so he lost.

Starting to feel discouraged the Christian looked toward the sky and prayed for some sort of inconvertible evidence for God's existence while the two atheist kept laughing that it's "two to one -- you lose."

Just then, the clouds parted and a celestial visage appeared in the sky and roared "Do not mock my servant for I am God and I exist!"

Stunned the two atheists turned and looked at each other.

Finally one turned, and after glancing heavenward, looked at the Christian, shrugged and said, "Fine. It's two to two. A tie."



I'll be leaving now. No need to get up. I know my way out.

News to me. Do Flying Spaghetti Monsters vote and roar?