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What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Not to their face. However, some of these people who claim to have had these experiences are often rather odd.
    People whom don't have these experiences are rather odd too - like you...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

      The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.[7] These "revisionist" authors argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7]


      As bad as the Documentary Hypothesis is, the proposed alternatives seem not much better - inasmuch that proponents have a habit of finding inconsistencies where none exist. I can't claim to have investigated every claim of inconsistency, but those that I have don't pan out.

      [5] Carr, David M. (2014). "Changes in Pentateuchal Criticism, p 436. - [As early as] 1928 it was proposed that any multiple sources that might have existed did so at the pre-literary level. {{the proposal seems tenable}}

      [7] Van Seters, John (2015), pp 28-29. The Pentateuch: A Social-Science Commentary - Three models of compositional structure have been proposed. 1/ The "Fragmentary/Story-cycle/Block Model." Individual stories or blocks were brought together and imperfectly collated. 2/ "The Supplementation or Expansion of a Basic Text Model" The basic content of the Torah has been supplemented or expanded, with those additions introducing inconsistencies and discontinuity to the original coherent text 3/ "The Source/Document/Literary Strata Model" Inconsistencies in the Pentateuch result from varied sources, "while the breaks in coherence and cohesion point to the redactional activity of combining them."

      So - JEDP is dead in the water.
      Last edited by tabibito; 11-25-2021, 12:22 PM.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post

        People whom don't have these experiences are rather odd too - like you...
        You know nothing about me.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          This is about me, isn't it?
          Pretty sure it's about me.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

            You know nothing about me.
            Just that you are an odd duck indeed....
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows shows there were witnesses to Harry's "death and resurrection". And?
              So there really is/was a Harry Potter? Same with Ron and Hermione?

              Care to make some other half-baked brainless quips?

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                On p. 139, Keener cites Quadratus as noting that some of the people Jesus raised from the dead were still alive in his time; the end-note suggests a date ca. AD 70-130.
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Another early Christian apologist.

                And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  On the contrary many fictitious individuals are placed in real world settings. Just think of Hugo's Les Miserables, or Lindsey Davis' first century "detective" Marcus Didius Falco, or the saucy goings-on of Ann Golon's Angélique at the court of Le Roi Soleil..
                  Perhaps you should have thought of that before starting to babble?

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post



                    The point of all that talk is, that the Christian experience of God is somewhat like human friendship. It is subjective, dynamic, alive, inter-personal, transcendent, not reducible to human calculation, dialogical, heart-to-heart. Not a quantitative, measurable, material, ecumenically verifiable object in the universe. There are differences between "Friendship" with God & human friendship, but there are also similarities; so the comparison is limited, but not wholly valueless.

                    That is why C. S. Lewis' Aslan, the equivalent of Christ in Narnia, "is not a tame lion". He could not be shown to unbelievers, as though he were a lapdog subject to human whims & manipulation. And neither can the Christ in Whom Christians believe and hope. That is why appeals to Christians (on YouTube, say) to "show me your God" cannot be complied with - the God in Whom we trust, is not our plaything, but (so we believe) the Creator of our being, our existence, and our lives. We are (in some sense) from this God, as being His handiwork - He is not from us, nor in any way subject to us.

                    That does not reply to all that you asked, but I hope it helps.
                    It's times like this I wish we still had Post of the Day

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Not to their face. However, some of these people who claim to have had these experiences are often rather odd.
                      Pot. Meet kettle.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        [/INDENT]

                        And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
                        Should we take it that H_A believes that only people who don't believe what they say are credible?
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          [/INDENT]

                          And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
                          The birth date for Quadratus of Athens is put at somewhere in the late first century and his writings are from the early second century [dated to between 120-130 CE].


                          Do tell us all how you consider that he was an "eye-witness" to events in Judaea and Galilee the late 30s CE.

                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            So there really is/was a Harry Potter? Same with Ron and Hermione?

                            Care to make some other half-baked brainless quips?
                            The point being that fictitious characters are placed in real-life settings. The Battle of Borodino took place. St Petersburg was and is a real city. Napoleon and Czar Alexander I were real people.

                            However, the Rostovs, and Pierre Bezukhov are fictitious characters in Tolstoy's work.


                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

                              The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.[7] These "revisionist" authors argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7]


                              As bad as the Documentary Hypothesis is, the proposed alternatives seem not much better - inasmuch that proponents have a habit of finding inconsistencies where none exist. I can't claim to have investigated every claim of inconsistency, but those that I have don't pan out.

                              [5] Carr, David M. (2014). "Changes in Pentateuchal Criticism, p 436. - [As early as] 1928 it was proposed that any multiple sources that might have existed did so at the pre-literary level. {{the proposal seems tenable}}

                              [7] Van Seters, John (2015), pp 28-29. The Pentateuch: A Social-Science Commentary - Three models of compositional structure have been proposed. 1/ The "Fragmentary/Story-cycle/Block Model." Individual stories or blocks were brought together and imperfectly collated. 2/ "The Supplementation or Expansion of a Basic Text Model" The basic content of the Torah has been supplemented or expanded, with those additions introducing inconsistencies and discontinuity to the original coherent text 3/ "The Source/Document/Literary Strata Model" Inconsistencies in the Pentateuch result from varied sources, "while the breaks in coherence and cohesion point to the redactional activity of combining them."

                              So - JEDP is dead in the water.
                              I suggest you actually read Carr's paper and Van Seeters book before offering pronouncements.

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Should we take it that H_A believes that only people who don't believe what they say are credible?
                                It's the Catch-22 that atheists love.

                                They demand testimony attesting to a miracle from someone who isn't a Christian because they'd be biased.

                                But what sort of person do they expect to find? Someone who can testify to the veracity of a miracle -- but still chooses not to believe? I doubt there are many folks like that.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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