Originally posted by rogue06
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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What would it take for the atheist to believe in God?
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
If I had not read the books, I would not have been able to provide the relevant page numbers, or the text therein that does not appear in the Wikipedia article.
The issue of the waning acceptance of JEDP was also addressed four years ago on this site,
And the methodological flaws of JEDP are ably documented in a satirical piece, "New Directions in Pooh Studies," published in On the Way to the Postmodern: Old Testament Essays 1967-1998, Volume 2 (JSOTSup 292; Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 1998), pp 830-839.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
There were some. People who wanted so much to believe their preconceptions that though they could not deny the miracles, refused to believe that God had anything to do with them. Also note, quite a few people who have witnessed miracles have to fight to believe they weren't hallucinating - which is frequently a more comforting assessment.
Had she read either of them herself, she would NOT be recommending that I do so. Both destroy her claim that JEDP is the hypothesis accepted by the overwhelming majority of Theologians.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIt's the Catch-22 that atheists love.
They demand testimony attesting to a miracle from someone who isn't a Christian because they'd be biased.
But what sort of person do they expect to find? Someone who can testify to the veracity of a miracle -- but still chooses not to believe? I doubt there are many folks like that.
Advice you should take wrt the Bible.Last edited by tabibito; 11-26-2021, 08:27 AM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIf that was your point then please do explain why you choose a fictitious person (Harry Potter) in a fictitious place (Hogwarts) to do so?
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
I suggest you actually read Carr's paper and Van Seeters book before offering pronouncements.
The issue of the waning acceptance of JEDP was also addressed four years ago on this site,
Originally posted by psstein View Post
The Documentary Hypothesis (or JEDP) is still the view of the majority of OT scholars. Other views, like the supplementary hypothesis (Van Seters, most notably) and the fragmentary hypothesis have become increasingly popular in recent years.
I hold to something like the fragmentary hypothesis.
My issue with the DH is that the division of sources seems arbitrary and I'm not convinced that there inexorably has to be an evolution of Israelite religion in the way that Wellhausen and later writers saw.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
The point being that fictitious characters are placed in real-life settings. The Battle of Borodino took place. St Petersburg was and is a real city. Napoleon and Czar Alexander I were real people.
However, the Rostovs, and Pierre Bezukhov are fictitious characters in Tolstoy's work.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Should we take it that H_A believes that only people who don't believe what they say are credible?
They demand testimony attesting to a miracle from someone who isn't a Christian because they'd be biased.
But what sort of person do they expect to find? Someone who can testify to the veracity of a miracle -- but still chooses not to believe? I doubt there are many folks like that.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Posthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis
The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s.[7] These "revisionist" authors argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7]
As bad as the Documentary Hypothesis is, the proposed alternatives seem not much better - inasmuch that proponents have a habit of finding inconsistencies where none exist. I can't claim to have investigated every claim of inconsistency, but those that I have don't pan out.
[5] Carr, David M. (2014). "Changes in Pentateuchal Criticism, p 436. - [As early as] 1928 it was proposed that any multiple sources that might have existed did so at the pre-literary level. {{the proposal seems tenable}}
[7] Van Seters, John (2015), pp 28-29. The Pentateuch: A Social-Science Commentary - Three models of compositional structure have been proposed. 1/ The "Fragmentary/Story-cycle/Block Model." Individual stories or blocks were brought together and imperfectly collated. 2/ "The Supplementation or Expansion of a Basic Text Model" The basic content of the Torah has been supplemented or expanded, with those additions introducing inconsistencies and discontinuity to the original coherent text 3/ "The Source/Document/Literary Strata Model" Inconsistencies in the Pentateuch result from varied sources, "while the breaks in coherence and cohesion point to the redactional activity of combining them."
So - JEDP is dead in the water.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo there really is/was a Harry Potter? Same with Ron and Hermione?
Care to make some other half-baked brainless quips?
However, the Rostovs, and Pierre Bezukhov are fictitious characters in Tolstoy's work.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post[/INDENT]
And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
Do tell us all how you consider that he was an "eye-witness" to events in Judaea and Galilee the late 30s CE.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post[/INDENT]
And here we have Hypatia_Alexandria handwaving off an eyewitness because they believed what they were saying and for no other reason.
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Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
The point of all that talk is, that the Christian experience of God is somewhat like human friendship. It is subjective, dynamic, alive, inter-personal, transcendent, not reducible to human calculation, dialogical, heart-to-heart. Not a quantitative, measurable, material, ecumenically verifiable object in the universe. There are differences between "Friendship" with God & human friendship, but there are also similarities; so the comparison is limited, but not wholly valueless.
That is why C. S. Lewis' Aslan, the equivalent of Christ in Narnia, "is not a tame lion". He could not be shown to unbelievers, as though he were a lapdog subject to human whims & manipulation. And neither can the Christ in Whom Christians believe and hope. That is why appeals to Christians (on YouTube, say) to "show me your God" cannot be complied with - the God in Whom we trust, is not our plaything, but (so we believe) the Creator of our being, our existence, and our lives. We are (in some sense) from this God, as being His handiwork - He is not from us, nor in any way subject to us.
That does not reply to all that you asked, but I hope it helps.
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