Originally posted by Stoic
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Argument From Reason...
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Claiming incredulity tell us nothing about how chemicals can, even in theory, produce propositional content or logical inference.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I prefer a more complete version of Darwin's quote:
"Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" (emphasis mine)
It's pretty obvious that what Darwin was doubting was his conviction that the universe is not the result of chance.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
“But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?
[To William Graham 3 July 1881]” Charles Darwin
And if you think science is any closer to explaining human consciousness than it was 150 years ago you are fooling yourself. It is actually getting worse.
"Nevertheless you have expressed my inward conviction, though far more vividly and clearly than I could have done that the Universe is not the result of chance. But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?" (emphasis mine)
It's pretty obvious that what Darwin was doubting was his conviction that the universe is not the result of chance.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Your argument would have been much more convincing before Darwin came along.
I expect that's why there were so many deists back then.
“But then with me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?
[To William Graham 3 July 1881]” Charles Darwin
And if you think science is any closer to explaining human consciousness than it was 150 years ago you are fooling yourself. It is actually getting worse.Last edited by seer; 10-11-2021, 12:32 PM.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No you find meaningless electrical impulses. Just like our meaningless electro-chemical impulses. Until they are translated, made rational. What translated for the computer? What translates for the human mind? And I would remind you that computers are only rational because they are an extension of our rationality. Rationality produced rationality. In the case of materialism you are still left with the non-rational producing the rational. I think your point works in favor of my position.
I expect that's why there were so many deists back then.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
If you put a hard drive under a microscope, do you find videos, songs, and photographs?
What's obvious to you isn't necessarily correct.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
If you put brain chemicals under a microscope do you find logical inference, propositions, ideals, consciousness? Will you ever? Pointing to incredulity solves nothing. I think it is obvious that some from of dualism where the immaterial mental states supervene on or direct physical actions, like in my OP must be the case.
What's obvious to you isn't necessarily correct.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Sorry, I don't share your incredulity.
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