Originally posted by Stoic
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The Argument From Reason...
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View Post
No, my point was that my position is more plausible. And the wild card is a rational, supremely powerful, Creator, nothing would prevent Him from creating. In your case you are sill left with non-rational, non-intelligent, non-conscious forces creating things that are completely foreign to and opposite of their nature. These forces have no intention, direction, or teleology. Where a God would have.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Except when they just used the concept of God to explain human rationality. Then they realize that it would be circular reasoning.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Once again, we reach the point where we'll have to agree to disagree. What is more plausible to you is obviously not more plausible to me.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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God is not contingent. I think we can all agree on that. Whether you believe God exists or not, the concept of God carries with it the idea of non-contingency. Take a leap here Stoic and Markus...you know what i'm talking about. You understand at least the theoretical notion that God is self existent and immutable.
That's the assumption that the theist begins with. And I believe that the theist has creative license to do so as long as his conclusions follow from that premise, regardless of how persuasive it might be to others.
So the theist begins with the assumption of non-contingency.
As far as I can tell, the atheist also has the freedom to say that natural selection is non-contingent, or aims at rationality, etc.
The question is: is natural selection contingent?
If yes, then any deductive argument presented by the atheist, will be what I am calling contingent deductive.
The theist's argument would be non-contingent deductive.
Contingent and Non-contingent Deductive. That my thing. Ima be famous.
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Originally posted by Machinist View Post
Contingent and Non-contingent Deductive. That my thing. Ima be famous.
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Machinist View PostGod is not contingent. I think we can all agree on that. Whether you believe God exists or not, the concept of God carries with it the idea of non-contingency. Take a leap here Stoic and Markus...you know what i'm talking about. You understand at least the theoretical notion that God is self existent and immutable.
That's the assumption that the theist begins with. And I believe that the theist has creative license to do so as long as his conclusions follow from that premise, regardless of how persuasive it might be to others.
So the theist begins with the assumption of non-contingency.
As far as I can tell, the atheist also has the freedom to say that natural selection is non-contingent, or aims at rationality, etc.
The question is: is natural selection contingent?
If yes, then any deductive argument presented by the atheist, will be what I am calling contingent deductive.
The theist's argument would be non-contingent deductive.
Contingent and Non-contingent Deductive. That my thing. Ima be famous.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
I have no idea what you mean. Saying that the brain can encompass consciousness tells us nothing about how or why it does or came about. Or how brain chemicals come to know conceptual truths or rational inference. You are begging the question.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
Well no, you just admitted that my syllogism was deductive.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by seer View Post
That is just silly Tass, these truths are discovered by historical methods and not scientific methods.
We only have any idea that you love your mother because you tell us.
A subjective truth (if correct) that is as true as water boiling at 212 °F.
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Consciousness and memory is stored in the neurons and pathways of the brain. This we know and neuroscience is continuing to find out more. There is no coherent energy medium for the functioning of consciousness, intelligence and personality beyond death. They are dependent upon the action of the living brain.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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There is a difference between Validity and Soundness. It is possible for a deductive argument to not be sound, but still be valid
Beginning with a Rational God, the argument that was previously presented, is Valid per the rules of logic. The soundness of it, obviously, is going to be a matter of belief.
God.jpg
The challenge here in this thread was never to build a sound deductive argument, only a valid one. That challenge has been met. One can deny soundness. Soundness is subjective. It would be a non-starter to even try to build a sound argument for the existence of God. That would be the same as proselytizing. Validity, however, is objective and apparent to all.
Does the conclusion follow from the premises? In the theists argument, yes it does. Again, we're not talking about soundness here. The assumptions that I make my initial premise with can be as wild and imaginative as I want and it can still be a valid deductive argument...IF.... the conclusion would necessarily be true, if the premises were true.
Yes, we are assuming the rationality, the trustworthiness, the non-contingency...we are assuming the very existence of God as premise#1. It's quite flexible at that stage of construction. Have fun with it and explore the possibilities. The Cosmos is the limit. Just make sure that your conclusion would necessarily be true, if your premises are true.
Now I have confirmed that the difference between soundness and validity is an actual rule within the study of logic.
The theist is still left with one problem though, and I have yet to understand how to resolve it. I think it could be resolved with more research into logic, but for now it seems like a valid objection. The objection is :
The theist began with human reason to even make the assumptions that form his 1st premise, therefore his argument is circular.
That does seem circular. I suspect there is a rule here that we do not know about (if you do know, please share), that states when the clock starts (so to speak). Does it really matter just how you got there? The "How you got there part" is not part of the deductive argument. Shouldn't only the contents of the deductive argument be what matters for it to be a Valid Deductive Argument?
It seems intuitive to me that there is a rule somewhere that says that only what is inside the argument matters when it's validity is being questioned.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post
Historical facts are confirmed by ‘historical critical thinking’ which is linked to the scientific methodology of objective research and accumulation of verifiable facts.
No, you have a very good idea that I love my mother because we are predisposed by natural selection as a social species to love and be loyal to our families and community. It is instinctive.
“IF CORRECT”. How do you know when subjective “truths” are correct?
Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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