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The Argument From Reason...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    Right that is why my deductive argument starts with a trustworthy God who does not seek to deceive us. The rest follows.
    But there may not be a trustworthy God who does not seek to deceive us.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      We we were speaking of options for creation.
      Perhaps that is what you were speaking of. You didn't really make it clear.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        But there may not be a trustworthy God who does not seek to deceive us.
        Right, it is a premise, one that leads, logically, to the reliability of our perception of reality. Perhaps a small thing to you, but I find it rather important.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post

          Right, it is a premise, one that leads, logically, to the reliability of our perception of reality. Perhaps a small thing to you, but I find it rather important.
          "Small thing" is a bit of an overstatement.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            "Small thing" is a bit of an overstatement.
            Well you haven't been much for the necessity of logical consistency. I mean, if memory serves, you don't believe that the laws of logic are absolute.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post

              Well you haven't been much for the necessity of logical consistency. I mean, if memory serves, you don't believe that the laws of logic are absolute.
              I've been very consistent about that.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                I've been very consistent about that.
                Very consistent about the laws of logic not being consistent. Got it...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Very consistent about the laws of logic not being consistent. Got it...
                  If you're going to be that way, we aren't going to be able to have any more discussions.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                    If you're going to be that way, we aren't going to be able to have any more discussions.
                    What did I say wrong? Beside didn't you accuse me of being devious?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      What did I say wrong?
                      I said I don't think the laws of logic are absolute, not that they aren't consistent.

                      Beside didn't you accuse me of being devious?
                      Refusing to defend your premise because you can't do so without presenting a circular argument, while at the same time accusing me of arguing in a circle, doesn't seem quite kosher. If "devious" isn't the right word, what word is?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                        I said I don't think the laws of logic are absolute, not that they aren't consistent.
                        Wait, if they are not absolute then in theory and in principle they need not be consistent.


                        Refusing to defend your premise because you can't do so without presenting a circular argument, while at the same time accusing me of arguing in a circle, doesn't seem quite kosher. If "devious" isn't the right word, what word is?
                        At that point I was not defending the concept of God, just presenting a deductive argument. And it was not circular. If you, or anyone else, was defending the legitimacy of human reason, using human reason, then that is circular. And that was what you seemed to be doing. In any case I was not trying to be devious.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment






                        • If natural selection is contingent, then the best the atheist can do, is make a valid logically deductive argument with premise 1 carrying the caveat, that it's contingent.

                          Only the theist can make a non-contingent and valid, logically deductive argument.




                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            If natural selection is contingent, then the best the atheist can do, is make a valid logically deductive argument with premise 1 carrying the caveat, that it's contingent.

                            Only the theist can make a non-contingent and valid, logically deductive argument.
                            I'm not sure what contingent and non-contingent are supposed to mean in this context.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              At that point I was not defending the concept of God, just presenting a deductive argument. And it was not circular. If you, or anyone else, was defending the legitimacy of human reason, using human reason, then that is circular. And that was what you seemed to be doing. In any case I was not trying to be devious.
                              If you just want to assert God as a brute fact, then you aren't arguing in a circle. That would be roughly equivalent to me asserting the reliability of human reason as a brute fact.

                              But if you are going to use human reason to argue for the existence of God, and use God to argue for the reliability of human reason, then you are arguing in a circle, even if you don't do it all at once.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post

                                That is silly Tass, we knew about the Gallic Wars long before anything close to the scientific method came around. These are historical questions, You can not prove scientifically that Caesar wrote Gallic Wars.
                                The Gallic Wars, as with all historical events, is confirmed by ‘historical critical thinking’ which is linked to a scientific attitude of mind. Namely, systematic observation, research and accumulation of verifiable facts.

                                This as opposed to your unsound deductive arguments based upon assumed, unverified premises.

                                Not all people love their families, you can not demonstrate scientifically that you actually do love your mother,
                                Exceptions do not prove the rule. Love of family and adherence to one’s social milieu among social animals is established via evolutionary natural selection as a survival mechanism.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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