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The Argument From Reason...

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post

    No, I am just presenting a deductive argument to logically justify human reasoning.
    Logic is just a set of rules and techniques for distinguishing good reasoning from bad. For a deductive argument to be ‘sound’ it’s premise must be demonstrably true.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      For a deductive argument to be sound it’s premise must be demonstrably true.
      My thoughts exactly. As in the way Seer's premise; “1. A rational trustworthy God exists.” Is NOT demonstrably true. And presents more as a conclusion than a premise.

      Looked at from many perspectives, as a premise it could be said to be demonstrably false.
      When inventing a god, it is imperative to claim that it's; invisible, inaudible and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise - when it appears to no one, is silent and does nothing - intelligent people are liable to become sceptical.
      - Anonymous

      When asked why Omniscient and Omnipotent God, chose to burn alive the children of two Middle Eastern cities, came the reply;
      “His hands were tied.” - DaveTheApologist

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

        Logic is just a set of rules and techniques for distinguishing good reasoning from bad. For a deductive argument to be ‘sound’ it’s premise must be demonstrably true.
        Nope, it only requires that one agrees with the premises. The theist will agree with the premise, the atheist does not. The syllogism itself remains deductive.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
          You can provide a "logical justification" for anything that way.

          You want to justify X? Just make up a Y, such that Y->X.

          1) Y
          2) Y->X
          3) Therefore, X.

          Now you have a non-circular, deductive argument for X. Without any effort whatsoever.
          Except the theist is not making up a rational Creator. Nor are we making up the logical justification for human reasoning. But as an atheist I don't expect you accept the premises.
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            Human history is not necessarily a “path to truth” given the social and religious diversity over the millennia. Social values and perceived “truth” have varied enormously. Only scientific methodology can provide empirical, repeatable results and eliminate subjectivity.
            That is nonsense Tass, use scientific methodology to demonstrate that Julius Caesar fought in the Gallic Wars, or that you had a cup of tea yesterday morning, or that you love your mom. All these things are true without scientific justification.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Markus River View Post


              Looked at from many perspectives, as a premise it could be said to be demonstrably false.
              Is it all a matter of perspective? Is this deductive argument invalid from other perspectives?

              It would be from an atheist perspective I guess. If the existence of a Rational God cannot be demonstrated to be true per the atheist's criteria, then the deductive syllogism presented by Seer is not valid from their frame of reference.

              . pooh.JPG

              Can the atheist create a deductive argument from their naturalistic viewpoint that is not circular? I think that it has already been conceded in this thread that it can't. The only retort being " You also have no way of avoiding circularity."

              So from what I gather, the atheist view is that neither the atheist nor the theist can actually create a deductive argument to logically justify human reasoning that it not circular.

              Does this represent everyone's position accurately?

              If it does, I have a follow up thought that I would like to share.



              Comment


              • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                Can the atheist create a deductive argument from their naturalistic viewpoint that is not circular? I think that it has already been conceded in this thread that it can't. The only retort being " You also have no way of avoiding circularity."

                So from what I gather, the atheist view is that neither the atheist nor the theist can actually create a deductive argument to logically justify human reasoning that it not circular.

                Does this represent everyone's position accurately?
                Nope.

                1) Our reasoning abilities are the result of natural selection.
                2) Reasoning abilities that are the result of natural selection are generally reliable.
                3) Therefore, our reasoning abilities are generally reliable.

                Please note that this is a non-circular, valid deductive argument.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  Nope.

                  1) Our reasoning abilities are the result of natural selection.
                  2) Reasoning abilities that are the result of natural selection are generally reliable.
                  3) Therefore, our reasoning abilities are generally reliable.

                  Please note that this is a non-circular, valid deductive argument.
                  Premise one is saying that non-rational, non-reasoning forces created our reasoning abilities.

                  Premise two, why would would non-rational forces that care nothing for, or aim at, cognitive reliability do so?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • And hasn't it already been established that there is no evidence that reasoning abilities are the result of natural selection?

                    At the same time, there is no evidence for God, yet we assert him as the premise.

                    Comment


                    • Because, because, because, we are theists. Yes. I keep forgetting that.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                        And hasn't it already been established that there is no evidence that reasoning abilities are the result of natural selection?

                        At the same time, there is no evidence for God, yet we assert him as the premise.
                        Except, in one case we have the rational creating the rational, in the other case we have the non-rational creating the rational. The other point is that these non-rational forces do not seek, care about, or aim at rationality. They are not intentional, where God would be.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • I am a theist in the sense that ""rationality came from rationality" is more plausible to me than "rationality came from irrationality.""


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post

                            Premise one is saying that non-rational, non-reasoning forces created our reasoning abilities.

                            Premise two, why would would non-rational forces that care nothing for, or aim at, cognitive reliability do so?
                            NOW you want the premises to be supported?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                              Because, because, because, we are theists. Yes. I keep forgetting that.
                              Here is quote you might like:

                              “If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents, the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for our thoughts. But if our thoughts are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? " C.S. Lewis
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                NOW you want the premises to be supported?
                                No, just explaining why mine is more plausible.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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