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  • #46
    Originally posted by seer View Post



    Most scientists are confident that consciousness emerges from unconscious complexity.

    https://samharris.org/the-mystery-of-consciousness/
    I will go with the "confident" majority of scientists despite Harris' questioning of them on this issue and leave you to cherry-pick an authority whom you think agrees with you. Note that Harris is an atheist and at no time suggests, because he questions the origins of consciousness, that "therefore god".
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post

      I will go with the "confident" majority of scientists despite Harris' questioning of them on this issue and leave you to cherry-pick an authority whom you think agrees with you. Note that Harris is an atheist and at no time suggests, because he questions the origins of consciousness, that "therefore god".
      Then you missed the whole point... And you are correct he is an atheist.

      Nevertheless, this notion of emergence strikes me as nothing more than a restatement of a miracle. To say that consciousness emerged at some point in the evolution of life doesn’t give us an inkling of how it could emerge from unconscious processes, even in principle.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Tassman View Post

        I will go with the "confident" majority of scientists despite Harris' questioning of them on this issue and leave you to cherry-pick an authority whom you think agrees with you. Note that Harris is an atheist and at no time suggests, because he questions the origins of consciousness, that "therefore god".
        And it is not even a scientific question:

        The problem, however, is that no evidence for consciousness exists in the physical world.

        Physical events are simply mute as to whether it is “like something” to be what they are. The only thing in this universe that attests to the existence of consciousness is consciousness itself; the only clue to subjectivity, as such, is subjectivity. Absolutely nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence of it in the physical universe
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by seer View Post

          And it is not even a scientific question:

          The problem, however, is that no evidence for consciousness exists in the physical world.

          Physical events are simply mute as to whether it is “like something” to be what they are. The only thing in this universe that attests to the existence of consciousness is consciousness itself; the only clue to subjectivity, as such, is subjectivity. Absolutely nothing about a brain, when surveyed as a physical system, suggests that it is a locus of experience. Were we not already brimming with consciousness ourselves, we would find no evidence of it in the physical universe
          It has yet to be established that there "is no evidence for consciousness existing in the physical world" There continues to be considerable scientific work on the functioning of the brain, consciousness and our thought processes.. For example: 'Decoding the neuroscience of consciousness - A growing understanding of consciousness could lead to fresh treatments for brain injuries and phobias'.

          https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02207-1




          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Tassman View Post

            It has yet to be established that there "is no evidence for consciousness existing in the physical world" There continues to be considerable scientific work on the functioning of the brain, consciousness and our thought processes.. For example: 'Decoding the neuroscience of consciousness - A growing understanding of consciousness could lead to fresh treatments for brain injuries and phobias'.

            https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02207-1
            No you missed the point again. Science can not, even in principle, show first person experience. What is it like for me to smell a rose. Certainly you could map my brain and see the neurons that are active while I'm smelling the rose, but you can not know what it is like for me. It is not a physical question. You can assume that my experience of the rose is the same as yours, but you don't know - nor can you. You could map a dog's brain down to the detail but science can never tell us what it is like to be a dog in experience. And BTW your link has nothing to do with the question of first person subjective experience. Which IS the question. The atheist Thomas Nagel pretty much blew this field up years ago.

            Last edited by seer; 10-20-2021, 08:18 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by seer View Post

              No you missed the point again. Science can not, even in principle, show first person experience. What is it like for me to smell a rose. Certainly you could map my brain and see the neurons that are active while I'm smelling the rose, but you can not know what it is like for me. It is not a physical question. You can assume that my experience of the rose is the same as yours, but you don't know - nor can you. You could map a dog's brain down to the detail but science can never tell us what it is like to be a dog in experience.
              There’s no point to be missed. One can compare first-person subjective experiences with those who have similar experiences. And because such “experiences” are basically physical they can increasingly be measured via a variety of means including neurophysiological tools such as electroencephalography (EEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) etc.

              It is a physical question because there is absolutely no evidence for consciousness and intellect and subjective experiences surviving beyond the physical activity of the living brain. When the physical brain ceases to function YOU and your subjective experience cease to function. And all the rest is make-believe.

              And BTW your link has nothing to do with the question of first person subjective experience. Which IS the question. The atheist Thomas Nagel pretty much blew this field up years ago.
              Thomas Nagle is a philosopher NOT a scientist. He is not in a position to promote tested, verified conclusions – merely philosophical speculation.


              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                There’s no point to be missed. One can compare first-person subjective experiences with those who have similar experiences. And because such “experiences” are basically physical they can increasingly be measured via a variety of means including neurophysiological tools such as electroencephalography (EEG) and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) etc.

                It is a physical question because there is absolutely no evidence for consciousness and intellect and subjective experiences surviving beyond the physical activity of the living brain. When the physical brain ceases to function YOU and your subjective experience cease to function. And all the rest is make-believe.
                This is completely wrong Tass, first I'm not speaking of what survives death or not. The argument is that physicalism is wrong, subjective experience proves that. I can right now taste and smell my mother's meatballs even though she is long dead and the receipt long lost. When I have this experience you certainly can map which parts of my brain light up but what you can't do, is have that experience yourself. And that subjective experience (the actual smell and taste) is beyond science.


                Thomas Nagle is a philosopher NOT a scientist. He is not in a position to promote tested, verified conclusions – merely philosophical speculation.
                So how does science tell us what the subjective inner life or experience of a bat is - even in principle.

                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by seer View Post

                  This is completely wrong Tass, first I'm not speaking of what survives death or not. The argument is that physicalism is wrong, subjective experience proves that. I can right now taste and smell my mother's meatballs even though she is long dead and the receipt long lost. When I have this experience you certainly can map which parts of my brain light up but what you can't do, is have that experience yourself. And that subjective experience (the actual smell and taste) is beyond science.
                  “That subjective experience” is your material brain in action. There is no ‘inner you’ separate from it. You ARE your brain – and when it ceases to exist YOU cease to exist. There is no argument against physicalism; there are no “truths” about consciousness that cannot be deduced from the physical brain by scientific methodology. Such a notion is merely unevidenced philosophical speculation.
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    “That subjective experience” is your material brain in action. There is no ‘inner you’ separate from it. You ARE your brain – and when it ceases to exist YOU cease to exist. There is no argument against physicalism; there are no “truths” about consciousness that cannot be deduced from the physical brain by scientific methodology. Such a notion is merely unevidenced philosophical speculation.
                    Really then science should be able to reproduce the smell and taste of my mother's meatballs. Or know how it tastes to me. Like you said in the other thread: "are ALL subjective experiences and ultimately only "true" for the recipient."

                    Which puts these experiences beyond scientific investigation or knowledge. Which destroys physicalism....

                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by seer View Post

                      Really then science should be able to reproduce the smell and taste of my mother's meatballs. Or know how it tastes to me. Like you said in the other thread: "are ALL subjective experiences and ultimately only "true" for the recipient."

                      Which puts these experiences beyond scientific investigation or knowledge. Which destroys physicalism....
                      Your experience of meatballs on a specific occasion is not in principle beyond scientific investigation, just as the subjective experience of any sentient creature enjoying a specific pleasure is not beyond investigation. It depends upon many factors such as mood, genetic makeup, environmental circumstances and social pressures etc. But ultimately, it is a physical experience because it is dependent upon a functioning physical brain. No brain, no meatball experience for you nor favorite banana experience for a chimpanzee.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                        Your experience of meatballs on a specific occasion is not in principle beyond scientific investigation, just as the subjective experience of any sentient creature enjoying a specific pleasure is not beyond investigation. It depends upon many factors such as mood, genetic makeup, environmental circumstances and social pressures etc. But ultimately, it is a physical experience because it is dependent upon a functioning physical brain. No brain, no meatball experience for you nor favorite banana experience for a chimpanzee.
                        Like you said: are ALL subjective experiences and ultimately only "true" for the recipient.

                        Even if the brain reproduces the taste and smell that experience is beyond science to know. Like you said it is ONLY true for me. Science can not reproduce the taste or smell no matter how much they know about the brain. Just as science could never know the inner life of a dog, how the dog experiences the world, no matter how well the map its brain.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by seer View Post

                          Like you said: are ALL subjective experiences and ultimately only "true" for the recipient.
                          Which is not to say they are actually “true”, particularly when it comes to subjective supernatural experiences - especially given that such experiences vary from person to person and can be contradictory. Ultimately, ALL subjective experiences are physical because their existence depends upon a functioning physical brain. No brain, no subjective experience.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment

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